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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:59 am 
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This report was published in the 1986 Epiphany edition of MIRecorder, the news sheet of the Medjugorje Information Service based in the UK.

Quote:
REPORT ON MIRJANA DRAGICEVIC
by Fr. Petar (Pera) Ljubicic O.F.M.

Mirjana, who was among the first to have apparitions, has told us that for her the daily apparitions ceased at Christmas 1982. At that time she was promised that she would have apparitions on her birthday (March 18). As she testifies, she has in fact since then had an apparition on each birthday; that is she has seen the Virgin Mary just as she used to do when she had daily apparitions.

Mirjana also states that for some time now she had been hearing an internal voice, the same voice that she used to hear during the daily apparitions. She claims that Our Lady is speaking to her, especially about the secrets. She heard this “inner voice” on June 1 and15, on July 19 and 27, and on August 15 and 27.

Some time previously Mirjana told me that I would be the priest to whom she would entrust the secrets, her confidant that is. After hearing the inner voice on June 1, she told me definitely that she would confide the secrets to me. She told me that ten days before the occurrence of the secret she would give me a paper similar to a parchment. Three days before the event I am to make the secret in question known to the public. When the event takes place, I am to give the paper back to Mirjana and wait for the next secret.

I add to this report two messages from Our Lady which Mirjana passed on to me:-


18th March 1985 (during the birthday apparition)
“They too are my children (this refers to those who are far away from God), and I grieve for them because they do not know what awaits them, if they do not turn back to God. Mirjana pray for them!”

15 August 1985 (given through the “inner voice”)
“My angel, pray for the unbelievers. They will teartheir hair, brother will plead with brother, they will curse their past godless lives and repent, but it will be too late. Now is the time to do what I have been calling for these four years. Pray for them!”

Mirjana emphasizes that the time is at hand when the first secret will be revealed. This is why she urges vigilance and prayer in the name of Our Lady.

Fr Petar Ljubicic
Medjugorje, 3 September 1985

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:15 am 
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Was it Father Petar who went off on a tangent? Who will Mirjana give the parchment to now?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:13 pm 
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It was Fr Tomislav Vlasic, who left the priesthood (for his own reasons).

Fr Petar is still about, but unlikely now to be the priest (if any) who will announce the so-called secrets.

Mirjana is now on record as saying she would be happy to hand the secrets to Pope Francis if he wanted.

The “time at hand” has stretched to a period of 33 years. And that’s for the first secret only!

It’s anyone’s guess how long the period will extend to for revealing the nine secrets that are supposed to follow.

“For nothing is hidden but will be made clear, nothing secret but it will be known and brought to light.” (Luke 8 : 17)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Quote:
Our Lady spoke about the secrets, clarifying the details of how everything would unfold and preparing me for my role. Then on September 13, 1984, she appeared again and told me the date on which I must give details of the first secrets to the priest.

Source: My Heart Will Triumph, by Mirjana Dragicevic with Sean Bloomfield

Quote:
Mirjana emphasizes that the time is at hand when the first secret will be revealed. This is why she urges vigilance and prayer in the name of Our Lady.

Source: Fr Petar Ljubicic, Medjugorje, 3 September 1985


So if Mirjana was told the date of the first secret on September 13, 1984, and then a year later emphasises to her ‘confidant’ that the time is at hand for the first secret to be revealed, then how come that 33 years on we are still in the waiting room?

Is it any wonder that Pope Francis is suspicious about the claims of ongoing apparitions and messages when he says: “This is not the Mother of Jesus. And these presumed apparitions don’t have a lot of value.”

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Quote:
The “time at hand” has stretched to a period of 33 years. And that’s for the first secret only!

revelation 22 wrote:
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
2000 years later we are used to waiting. Actually a couple of years more and we are 'celebrating' 2000 years of resurrection.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Yes, I understand time in biblical terms, but Mirjana claims that she has been chosen to reveal the 10 secrets and has also commissioned Fr Petar to make the announcements, so I presume, rightly or wrongly, this will be in her lifetime, even maybe in Fr Petar’s.

So if Mirjna doesn’t reveal the first secret in her lifetime, what will that say about her claims and legitimacy of the messages she has been giving out?

Can’t help but sense that all of this is beginning to shape up like the Emperor’s New Clothes fable.

And I’m still wondering just why Pope Francis made a specific point to the world media of expressing his personal doubt about the claims of ongoing apparitions.

Just what has the Commission report dug up to make him doubt in this way, yet seemingly prepared to accept the first seven apparitions to the visionaries as a group together?

We shall probably never know, but the pressure is on Mirjana to deliver on her claims and not the Church, if and when it proclaims acceptance of the supernatural nature of the first seven apparitions.

And again I ask, just why doesn’t the parish website publish the monthly message to Mirjana, especially when Sr Emmanuel distributes it, claiming it to be a message to the world. If both messages are from the same source, Our Lady, then what’s stopping the parish website from presenting it as it does with the monthly message for the world given to Marija? Or, like Pope Francis, does it consider the message hasn’t a lot of value?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:38 pm 
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They are all still alive. So patience is key.
Not so for example for a guy named
Joey Lomangino.
I should not say this.
Even so, I will stress again.
Imagine that you are in the shoes of
Mirjana. One day the apparition arrives
in front of you saying that now you need
to fast 10 days, because the time is t-10.
t-9
t-8
t-7
t-6
t-5
t-4
t-3 Now Petar must tell some reporters
that it is t-3, and this and that will happen
somewhere in the world and stay put.
t-2
t-1
d-day.
Nothing happens like in
Garabandal.
Harold Camping.
or any of the impressive list below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events
This means that from that moment
Medjugorje is dead. Visitors will drop.
10000 people without a job.
Hotels without use.
Can you imagine the pressure on
the shoulders of Mirjana?
So when it is t-3 they will decide
to say nothing and spare Medjugorje.
If they say nothing and something
happens, it would be very weak to
claim afterward.
Unless.
I can only imagine 1 scenario
that can't be covered/hidden where
they are literally forced to heed the
proposed schedule.
t-3 Mirjana dies. Fasted too much.
So nothing to lose, because with
Mirjana dead, it is like with Joe
Lomangino. The end of Garabandal.
Then Petar tells/insinuates that Mirjana
may get resurrected in 3 days.
t-2
t-1
d-day Mirjana is resurrected.

Schedule completed.

O JohnyBoy.. I have too much imagination.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Quote:
Visitors will drop.

There are signs this is happening already, but that could be down to a number of factors... the Pope expressing his doubt about the ongoing apparition claims, the increasing cost of pilgrimages, the ban of visionaries witnessing outside of Medjugorje...

But the special graces are still there. People convert, reconcile with the Church and each other, return to the Sacraments and start making new lives.

I don’t put that down to the messages or secrets, but to the power and action of the Holy Spirit.

Whatever brings people to Medjugorje isn’t important, but what they return home with is.

One day the visionaries will no longer be around and there will be no more messages from them. But the message of the gospel never changes. That’s the call which has been constant for the past 2,000 plus years.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Regarding these special graces, would these not be available wherever people are? Why would they be more abundant in a small town where apparitions may or may not be happening?
If we're working on the premise that all is not as it seems, I find it hard to see why Medjugorje is full of grace compared to wherever you live, for example.
Unless we are talking about some type of placebo effect where people open their hearts based on their firm conviction that Mary has been appearing.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Quote:
where people open their hearts based on their firm conviction that Mary has been appearing.
That is called faith, isn't it?
And we believe that faith is not a placebo.
Faith is the root that causes the action of God.

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The wrath of God is more delightful than the joy of men. Or do you think that after satiation of the wrath of God, the world is lost? On the contrary, when God is done with us, we will cry with joy. Do we need devastation to open our eyes though.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:24 pm 
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ActionReq wrote:
Quote:
where people open their hearts based on their firm conviction that Mary has been appearing.
That is called faith, isn't it?
And we believe that faith is not a placebo.
Faith is the root that causes the action of God.


My point is that I fail to see why a particular village would have "special graces" if the apparitions are false. I can only accept that Medjugorje has these special graces if Mary has been appearing there. Surely good fruit could not come from a rotten tree?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Quote:
My point is that I fail to see why a particular village would have "special graces" if the apparitions are false. I can only accept that Medjugorje has these special graces if Mary has been appearing there. Surely good fruit could not come from a rotten tree?

Your understanding demonstrates a problem that arises with Medjugorje when some believe that the graces are conditional on Mary’s appearances or apparitions.

Quote:
I can only accept that Medjugorje has these special graces if Mary has been appearing there.

Well it seems that the Church is prepared to accept that Mary appeared in Medjugorje and will acknowledge the first seven apparitions as supernatural.

But if you can accept that Jesus appears at Medjugorje in the Eucharist every day, then maybe you may be able to accept that his presence and sacraments (gifts) are also special graces. :)

You may want to ask yourself: where does Mary’s grace come from?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:48 pm 
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There would have been a lot more pressure after the first seven apparitions to say they had stopped if they did. If the apparitions stopped it would have been a lot easier then to just say they had stopped. There was still a lot pressure from the communist government back then, so why at that time would it go on if it wasn't true?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:53 pm 
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bluecross wrote:
Your understanding demonstrates a problem that arises with Medjugorje when some believe that the graces are conditional on Mary’s appearances or apparitions.


If the special graces at Medjugorje are NOT conditional on Mary's apparitions, then it follows that they are available to all everywhere, not just in Medjugorje.

Followed logically then, it would make no sense to pilgrimage to Medjugorje (or anywhere else for that matter), as you can achieve the same results simply by staying home.

If however these special graces are demonstrably more abundant in places like Medjugorje and Lourdes, then stunnedbyit has a point.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:12 pm 
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I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter how many times a priest says to you 'may God bless you', or sprinkles holy water over you,
it doesn't matter how many times we may go through the motions even receiving the sacraments,
If we're not trying to respect and obey God in spirit and in truth, then we're only cursing ourselves and any blessing
or graces will fall off like water off a ducks back.
We'll have no room for them.
On so many occasions people are swanning up to communion, and then come out and treat their neighbour like
something on the end of their shoe. Human politics always threatens the peace.

I honestly believe that many people have visited Medjugorje because they've felt called there.
I haven't been because i haven't been called.
It's Our Lady who calls people there, so in that sense they're obeying the will of God by even making that pilgrimage..
that's why they receive the blessings and why the place seems anointed.

It's been so popular in the past despite all the kerfuffle surrounding the visionaries.
There's nowhere in the world like it, that i'm aware of.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:16 am 
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Quote:
If the special graces at Medjugorje are NOT conditional on Mary's apparitions, then it follows that they are available to all everywhere, not just in Medjugorje.

Absolutely! So why are the graces of conversion and repentance so abundant in Medjugorje and not seemingly in our parishes at home.

Quote:
Followed logically then, it would make no sense to pilgrimage to Medjugorje (or anywhere else for that matter), as you can achieve the same results simply by staying home.

Pilgrimage always makes sense as it is setting out on a journey to meet with God. Life is a pilgrimage. It makes sense when we can understand that we are journeying to Heaven.

As an intercessor, Mary is not confined to Medjugorje. She follows her Son... “After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and the brothers, but they stayed there only a few days.” (John 2 :12)

As for achieving the same results simply by staying at home, what need for God the Father to send us his Son when he could achieve the same results staying in Heaven? What need for Jesus to let himself be crucified? What need for Jesus to leave Nazareth and invite people to follow him. What need did Mary and Joseph have to go looking for Jesus for three days?

“Rabbi (which means teacher), where do you live?” “Come and see” he replied. (John 1 38-39)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:16 am 
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Quote:
It's Our Lady who calls people there, so in that sense they're obeying the will of God by even making that pilgrimage.

Yes, God does use others to call us, and not just Our Lady.

In today’s first reading it is the Holy Spirit who called Barnabas and Saul to mission.

A friend of mine called me to Medjugorje. She was quite persistent. In my wife’s case it was a friend of hers who invited her to Medjugorje two years earlier.

I suppose it can be said that it is through the witness of others that we are called.

So if we are waiting for Our Lady to call us to Medjugorje, it may not be herself making the call direct, messenger and handmaid of the Lord though she is.

We are called by the grace of God or, as you say, by the will of God.

That’s why Philip said to Nathaniel, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, the one about whom the prophets wrote: he is Jesus, son of Joseph, from Nazareth.” “From Nazareth?” said Nathaniel “Can anything good come from that place?” “Come and see” replied Philip. (John 1 : 45-46)

I suppose the same could have been said about Medjugorje at the start of the apparitions: “Can anything good come from that place?”

Since then millions of witnesses who have ‘found’ Jesus and have come to know his love in their lives, return home and say: “Come and see”.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:53 pm 
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bluecross wrote:
So why are the graces of conversion and repentance so abundant in Medjugorje and not seemingly in our parishes at home.


Quite simply, because of Mary's presence.

There is no disagreement among the faithful that special graces do abound in Medjugorje. Remarkable things (healings, conversions, etc) routinely happen in Medjugorje that do not take place in my local parish. The fact that these special graces are available in Medjugorje testifies to her real presence there, and thereby validates her apparitions.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:25 pm 
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bluecross wrote:
Yes, God does use others to call us, and not just Our Lady.


Do you think its the holy spirit acting in others who calls us?
Other people's witness has been instrumental in my faith too.

I know its somewhat off topic, but do you think God can even use people who are evil to bring us closer to him?

The whole area of discernment can be a confusing one, and i admit I've felt like a pharisee in the past where i'd question
whether or not somebody is acting in the power of the holy spirit or not. Actually I've gone to whole hog and questioned whether or
not they'd even need an exorcism! This was just based on the fruits i observed. Then i'd wonder had i committed the unforgivable sin
against the holy spirit!
Its tricky!
:?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Quote:
The fact that these special graces are available in Medjugorje testifies to her real presence there, and thereby validates her apparitions.

So going down your logic route, does that mean once Our Lady stops appearing there then the special graces will cease?

The special graces testify first and foremost to the presence of the Holy Spirit. Our Lady’s graces stem from the Holy Spirit. The graces given to you and I stem from the presence of the Holy Spirit. The graces given at Pentecost descended from the Holy Spirit, not Mary. She, as all of us are invited to do, transport the graces to others and share them.

As I hinted at earlier, there is a tendency by some Medjugorje followers to put Mary in first place, and not the Blessed Trinity. Sure, through Mary to Jesus, and Mary points the way to her Son, but to suggest or infer that the graces given at Medjugorje are dependent on and stem from Mary’s presence is to set aside the Real Presence of Jesus at Medjugorje and the Real Source of all grace.

And this is where, I feel, that Pope Francis, sees the problem at Medjugorje, the danger of a ‘parallel Church’ through continuing claims of apparitions and messages, believing that all the graces and ‘good fruits’ are down to Mary’s continuing presence.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 pm 
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Quote:
Do you think its the holy spirit acting in others who calls us?

Yes!

Quote:
...do you think God can even use people who are evil to bring us closer to him?

All of us are sinners, and “only the Father is good”, but I believe that God is present in all situations and can use any opportunity to draw people closer to him.

Quote:
Then i'd wonder had i committed the unforgivable sin against the holy spirit!

Isn’t the unforgivable sin to deny the workings of the Holy Spirit when we are in full knowledge of his actions within us. Perhaps when our own pride stands in the way and we make an everlasting choice to side with evil. Our Lady mentions somewhere in her messages that those who go to hell do so because they want to, in the full knowledge of God’s love for them.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Maryh wrote:
Do you think its the holy spirit acting in others who calls us?


God can use any part of His creation as a tool to achieve His designs of "calling" us. God’s providence extends over all, both good and evil. Isn't that what the story of salvation is? Isn't this God calling mankind out of the evil man has wrought? And to do so, doesn't God have to work in and use the tools of the fallen (evil) arena we now exist in?

Can evil people or evil circumstances be used to create good? God took the greatest evil and brought out of it the greatest good on a hill called Calvary. Christ Himself is the good that is brought out of evil. As St. Paul tells us "For our sake he [God] made him [Christ] to be sin [evil] who did not know sin"

Never doubt God's ability to bring good out of bad.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:04 pm 
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bluecross wrote:
So going down your logic route, does that mean once Our Lady stops appearing there then the special graces will cease?


Have the healings and conversions stopped at Lourdes and Fatima?

Our Lady's continuing presence at an apparition site is not a requirement for the dispensation of the special graces she wishes to give.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:11 pm 
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On the subject of Mirjana, she does not come across as someone who carries a massive burden. Ok, I don't personally know her, but in her public appearances she never seems (to me at least) ill at ease.

If there has been deception, then she has pulled off something remarkable. All those years, all the repetitive questions, all the pilgrims, all the public tears of joy..

I know that human beings are capable of staggering things, but to continue functioning while having that type of inner burden seems unbelievable.

What are the chances of the Church disclosing the supposed negative information which paints latter apparitions in a bad light?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Quote:
If there has been deception, then she has pulled off something remarkable.

I don’t consider Mirjana has set out to deceive anyone.

We are all capable of deceiving ourselves, even wanting to believe. Examples of this are on show at Medjugorje all of the time. Who believes everything they are told, truth or not?

Quote:
…public tears of joy

or sadness? Never seen the other visionaries weep tears, in joy or in sorrow.

Quote:
…to continue functioning while having that type of inner burden seems unbelievable.

Not a burden if you believe in what you claim.

Quote:
What are the chances of the Church disclosing the supposed negative information which paints latter apparitions in a bad light?

The local bishop has denounced the apparitions and the visionaries and presented arguments for doing so, but I can’t see the Vatican or the Pope choosing to go down that route, although Francis has made it clear he has personal doubts about the veracity of the ongoing apparitions.

The key will be in the ‘secrets’, if and when they are announced. If nothing happens in the visionaries’ lifetime then then that will be a judgement itself.

In the meantime, the Church is prudent enough to want to protect the tree that produces the good fruit and, by recognising the first seven apparitions when Our Lady appeared to the visionaries as a group, this will be achieved without having to wait for the ‘fruition’ of any so-called ‘secrets.

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