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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:45 pm 
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On his way back to Rome from Fatima this evening, Pope Francis has commented about the Medjugorje situation.

Quote:
Question: In Fatima we have seen a great testimony of popular faith, the same one that is also found in Medjugorje. What do you think of those apparitions and the religious fervor that they have generated, in the light of having decided to appoint a bishop delegated for the pastoral aspects?

“All apparitions or alleged apparitions belong to the private sphere; they are not part of the ordinary public magisterium. For Medjugorje, Benedict XVI set up a commission presided over by Cardinal Ruini. I received the results; the commission was composed of good theologians, bishops and cardinals. The committee report is very, very good. There were some doubts in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and the Doctrine thought appropriate to send each of the members of the Feria IV - the monthly meeting of the Congregation - all the documentation, including the opinions contrary to the Ruini report. I received the notification on a late Saturday night. It did not seem right to me; it was like putting the Ruini report, which is very well done, at auction. On Sunday morning, the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith received a letter in which I asked that instead of sending those opposing views to Feria IV, they should be sent to me personally. These opinions have all been studied - I would like to stress, all of them. The Ruini report states that the first apparitions when the seers were young must be distinguished from the others, and says that investigation should be done on those first ones. The report presents its doubts on the current alleged visions. Personally, I’m meaner: I prefer the Lady Mother, to the boss of telegraphic office, who sends a message every day. And these supposed apparitions do not have much value: I say this as a personal opinion. There are those who think that Our Lady is saying: Come, on that day I will give a message to that seer. Thirdly, there is the spiritual and pastoral fact, the core of the relationship: people who convert, who meet God, who change life. And this is not thanks to a magic wand. This fact cannot be denied. Now to see this, I have appointed a good bishop (Monsignor Hoser, ndr) who has experience in dealing with the pastoral side. In the end, you will hear some words.”

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:04 pm 
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https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/ ... e-not-shut

Here's another link to that interview too.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:54 pm 
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That does not sound good but as at Fatima our lady will show the world that she is there in Medjugorje
God Bless you all
love Irish M


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:17 pm 
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This has to be seen as a major setback for Medjugorje, that Pope Francis has expressed his ‘personal’ opinion in this way.

And just at the start of the pilgrimage season.

How are we to read between the lines when the Pope says he doubts the current claims of apparitions and messages? What is he saying exactly about the visionaries? Is he questioning their state of mind? Is he suggesting they may be influenced or manipulated by others with vested interests in keeping the show on the road? Or that they may have been manipulated in the past?

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:05 am 
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I can’t see me getting much sleep tonight after what Pope Francis has said about Medjugorje today.

His comment about the “supposed apparitions not having much value” has really surprised me.

I wonder what sort of reaction or effect this will have on the Franciscans at Medjugorje who support the visionaries and apparitions? How will visiting priests respond? Will they continue to preach in glowing terms about Our Lady’s apparitions and her messages?

Will Cardinal Schonborn continue to invite a Medjugorje visionary to his Cathedral each year, now the Pope has clearly expressed his personal opinion regarding the current apparitions.

Much confusion. Hopefully Pope Francis will soon be able to make a clear statement on the Medjugorje situation so that everyone knows what is legit and what isn’t.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:12 am 
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To me, this is pretty much what we have already heard in the past (the postman quote). Pope Francis clearly doesn't like the frequency of these messages. He does however accept and even embraces the fruits that have come out of Medjugorje which is something that cannot be taken away from anyone that has been blessed by these fruits.

The complexities of Medjugorje makes this apparition site a difficult place to get your arms around it. It is the positive experience by millions of pilgrims that is much easier understand and appreciate. At this point, this is where the Pope is focusing his efforts.

This won't affect my perspective on Medjugorje but it will certainly affect those who have no history or relationship there. Speaking for myself, this is a good time to replace fear and uncertainty with faith and prayer.

That said and In my opinion, the Pope should be a little more careful on the Papal Plane. There has been a fair amount of controversy coming from these on the spot interviews. Most of the articles failed to mention the Pope's appreciation for the fruits of Medjugorje but instead just quoted the headline material.... :(

Even though I don't always agree with his personal opinion, I love Pope Francis as his love, mercy, and compassion is overflowing...

Just saw your post and article Sean. Thanks for posting! Refreshing and encouraging!


Last edited by Medjugorjeprayers on Sun May 14, 2017 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:27 am 
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Interesting times indeed.

Here's the pope's entire answer to the question:

http://medjugorjelive.org/2017/05/14/wh ... edjugorje/

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:22 am 
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Yes, it’s not the first time Pope Francis has used the post office quote, but now we are left with no doubt that he is referring to Medjugorje and the messages. On previous occasions we wanted to think that he was referring to other claims of apparitions and messages, and not those of Medjugorje. This time there is no uncertainty. His finger is pointing at Medjugorje.

The scary thing for me is Pope Francis has called into question the reliability of the visionaries who still claim to see Our Lady and give messages. By sowing the seeds of doubt, how will that impact on Medjugorje?

Pope Francis is not stupid. He must know the impact his words will have on those who follow the messages, and promote the apparitions. Okay, it’s his personal opinion, but he has had access to all the information presented by the Commission and I can only assume the report contains details to support his doubt.

There is nothing wrong in having doubt about aspects of Medjugorje. Just lately, I have been troubled about the integrity of the messages put out by Mirjana. Yet she was one of the first two witnesses to seeing Our Lady on the first day, June 24, 1981, the other being Ivanka.

So now I don’t promote the messages she gives out on the 2nd of each month.

As to the secrets, and the permanent sign. Do these fall into the first phase of the apparitions, those that the Commission is supposedly saying need further examination? Will any manifestation of a permanent sign necessarily endorse the claims of apparitions and messages Pope Francis has difficulty in accepting? Or will the sign just be an endorsement of the first phase of the apparitions?

Like the Pope, I have no trouble in recognising the fruits of Medjugorje, namely the return to the Sacraments and reconciliation with the Church by many Catholics who had drifted away in their time. I have my own personal conversion experience to draw on as well, and I know there is a special grace present at Medjugorje, and so I still encourage people to travel there.

It will be interesting to see if Marija responds to the Pope’s comments when she speaks with Radio Maria after receiving her next message.

A testing time for the visionaries and their families, but maybe that is also part of Our Lady’s plan. It reminds me of the time some of those who followed Jesus rejected him when he spoke about his flesh being eaten. And then there was the time the family of Jesus came to take charge of him because they thought he was out of his mind.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:25 am 
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I reckon the Pope’s doubts were expressed to the Franciscans at Medjugorje soon after the arrival the Pope’s envoy at Medjugorje.

I posted at the time about the demeanour of the two Franciscans present at Archbishop Hoser’s press conference.

Quote:
I noticed at the Hoser press conference that the parish priest Fr Marinko Šakota and the Franciscan Provincial Fr Miljenko Šteko did not look the happy bunnies they were a few days earlier when Archbishop Hoser arrived in town. In fact, they appeared downright dismal. Had their cards been marked that possible shrine status was not one of the gifts the envoy was bringing from Pope Francis?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39870#p229502

Perhaps their disappointment wasn’t over shrine status but the Pope relaying a message via his envoy that he wan’t convinced about the current apparitions and messages.

Expect changes on this front. Perhaps even a cessation of the message to Marija being published and dissemenated around the world by the parish office.

The Vatican is making serious moves against the visionaries witnessing to the apparitions. This has been happening for some time and I can only see more restrictions being put in place. The local bishop has previously requested Mirjana to stop having her apparitions in public, which hasn’t happened. Will she take note of Pope Francis?

If Medjugorje is given official recognition by the Vatican as a place of pilgrimage, then the visionaries may have no alternative but to receive the apparitions in private. Mirjana may be left with no choice but to go indoors. Ivan also.

It would not be the first time “authorities” have prevented the visionaries from having apparitions on the hill.

Last time they were sent into the church by the Communists –– until the local bishop decided against this. So it was back to the hills and their homes.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:59 am 
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Maybe you should read this.
Document
There is no comfortable road
to the heavens. There is no
comfortable road to sainthood.
There is the cross. There is
suffering. Suffer to be holy.
What did it take for the
dogmas to be spoken?
Yearsnyears.
In the end? You will hear some words?
Triumph?

Newman said that the body of
believers, the church, you, is
also a magisterium.

In fact, the most important magisterium.

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Blessed the poor in Spirit. But did you know that being poor is neither a goal nor a means and less a merit to get anything done.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Thank you Sean for providing the entire text of the answer. It provides some context.

There are several things to consider here.

First, I remember a comment the Pope made at the time the Ruini report was near completion. “The problem of Medjugorje…”. It is clear that he is conflicted about it. He sees the fruits of it but can’t wrap his arms around the daily apparitions. It is unprecedented and something that I believe he cannot process. On a larger scope, I see this pattern with him on other fronts, especially when it comes to non religious views. Issues such as immigration, capitalism, and so on. He takes a view that I believe is based on his personal experience, and not a more global view. He comes from a country that I believe has been dysfunctional in its leaders and I see much of his political views influenced by that. It is unusual because typically Popes are more well rounded, but I don’t see that here. I have been frustrated with many comments he has made on this front and I believe it impacts his view on Medjugorje as well.

Another point is that he said this is his personal opinion. That points to what we already know that there are those who are telling him something he does not agree with (ie – Schonborn) and it adds to his confict. It also indicates he is not comfortable with where he stands on this.

In addition, when looking at history, isn’t this typical of how many of these go? The Church is slow to come around.
What he says will not change my mind unless there is some fraud exposed out of this. Given that the visionaries did not waver when the Communists came to their door, I seriously doubt there is fraud here.

The impact, which has already been mentioned earlier in the thread, is not going to be so much to us here, but to the people who are not that informed about Medjugurje or are on the fence. This saddens me because the breadth of the fruits of Medjugorje may be affected by this.

I also wonder how Saint Pope John Paul II would have reacted to Medjugorje if he had not gone through the assassination attempt on him. He was changed by that experience and I am convinced it impacted how he viewed Medjugorje. The point here is that his reaction may be more out of the norm of what you see than it more typical of the Church (which also says something about the greatness of him).

My hope is that the Pope will have a breakthrough (although I am not hoping for him to go through what Saint Pope John Paul II went through), but I am not holding my breath.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:58 pm 
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My view is that Pope Francis wont issue any negative formal declaration if the apparitions are still genuine. the Holy Spirit will guide to ensure the full truth comes out. Having said that, it doesnt look too good at the moment. The part about the message not having "much value" was an ouch moment.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:36 pm 
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bluecross wrote:
His comment about the “supposed apparitions not having much value” has really surprised me.


You say "His comment about the 'supposed apparitions not having much value' has really surprised me." This is not the case for many of us who understood from the get-go that this pope was no friend of Medjugorje. Slowly, more and more, he is coming out of hiding and revealing his true stance.

You say "Much confusion. Hopefully Pope Francis will soon be able to make a clear statement on the Medjugorje situation so that everyone knows what is legit and what isn’t." Au contraire mon frère, what he has said all along is crystal clear. He has been slowly running his true colors up the yardarm for those who chose to see and understand. To date, you have given him the benefit of the doubt and have just been reticent to see his true meaning. And you think there is need for a clearer statement? Why do you look to a biased, closed-minded individual to tell you "what is legit and what isn’t"? Where is your faith?

I have to agree with gtc that this pope's agenda is based on his personal pre-pontiff life. His formation in the corrosive socialist political environment in South America has stunted the development in him of a well rounded, balanced worldview for the man. He is a prisoner of his upbringing, and not smart enough to see that. If he was, he would know that his words as the pope have a serious impact, and he would know enough to say nothing until there is something definitive and certain to say. As gtc points out, the pope has provided us with a clear window into his inner bias when he said "the problem with Medjugorje". The problem . . . That speaks volumes. That says it all.

MP said "The complexities of Medjugorje makes this apparition site a difficult place to get your arms around it." Have not all others been the same? All apparitional events are difficult to discern. The authenticity of bona-fide apparitions is not scientifically provable. Science can only prove that a faux event is a fraud. And despite much effort, this has never been done.

You said "The local bishop has previously requested Mirjana to stop having her apparitions in public . . I can only see more restrictions being put in place". Sadly, I agree. In this slow eradication - this purposeful attempt to erase the apparitions of Medjugorje, maybe next time your above sentence will have to delete the words "in public".

I am struck by the contrast between the difference of how this pope relates to Medjugorje, and that of St. John Paul II. One a not-so-surreptitious enemy; the other an ardent friend. How can they both have it right? How can they both know what they're talking about? Indeed, both popes they, but only one can be correct regarding the truth of Medjugorje. Certainly we are all free to side with either one if we choose to. But why in the world would we even turn to the Church - or a pope - in the first place to speak to the veracity of an event like this? The Church has always been a day late and a dollar short in matters like this.

They will yet be again.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Isn’t it somewhat ironic that Pope Francis chose the great centenary feast of Our Lady of Fatima to express his ‘personal’ disbelief in the current apparitions at Medjugorje.

With this one simple statement the often quoted phrase about Medjugorje being the completion of Fatima now has to be seen with a fresh heart and perhaps its meaning understood in a different light?

Who could ever have expected Pope Francis to issue an opinion as he has done on February 13?

Was he inspired by the Holy Spirit during his time at Fatima to make this personal witness of faith?

But we should not forget that he has not dismissed the good ‘fruits’ of Medjugorje, perhaps just pointing out that some perceived fruits can be deceiving, look pleasing to the eye, but are out of season or over-ripened.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Ok------- I awoke this morning wondering if late last night, when I was half asleep, was only a dream... It is clear now that it wasn't.

As said earlier, I (we) have seen the Pope mention this "postman" comment before. And as you stated BC we now know for certain this is directed at Medjugorje.
At that later time, I was busy writing my book on Medjugorje and to be honest, It made me freeze in my tracks and I put the unfinished book on the shelf. I didn't want to be in conflict with
the Vatican. Recently I have revived my project with the intent to publish it soon. In fact, I was working on my author website last night when I decided to check out the forum to see what
was going on. I now wish I hadn't looked at it so late at night as I shared in your probable experience BC with a restless at best nights sleep.

This time around, Lord willing, I am not going to let this turn of events freeze my ministry again. In fact, it makes me want to publish it even more. I consider this as a witness to my faith, not promoting it.
There are parts to this book that I know the reader and the Pope will have problems believing but that's ok. My job is to speak the truth to the best of my ability. For the most part, it will focus on the Fruits that I and others have experienced that I feel obligated and want to share. As others have said here, Medjugorje will be going through even more trials, especially now, just as a lot of us have personally experienced an increase lately.

I have been studying the book of Acts with emphasis on Paul who endured great hardship witnessing his faith. He persevered, not through his strength but through our Lord's. Action Req - your post on the cross and suffering hit the nail on the head. GTC, I agree with your insight on the Pope being somewhat jaded from all his horrific experiences with corruption in Argentina. Thanks for posting that. Prodicals, you are right - all apparitions sites have had their drama....

Hopefully, I can help build up our Lady's plan here at Medjugorje. And believe me that I realize that I am smaller than a grain of sand in the scope of things and understand that it takes all of us together to make a difference.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:53 pm 
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I believe I once read something that said, to the effect, that a time before the secrets begin that something would happen that would cause people to disbelieve in the authenticity of the apparitions. Does this sound familiar and does anyone have the quote and where it is from?


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:18 pm 
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Local wrote:
Does this sound familiar and does anyone have the quote and where it is from?


Vicka has supposedly said that the sign will come at a time when hardly anyone believes. It is not clear whether she was speaking about belief in Medjugorje, or about belief in God in general.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:22 pm 
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bluecross wrote:
But we should not forget that he has not dismissed the good ‘fruits’ of Medjugorje,


He wants it both ways.

He fails to understand that the good fruit of Medjugorje is a direct the result of Our Lady's presence and Her messages.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Quote:
This time around, Lord willing, I am not going to let this turn of events freeze my ministry again. In fact, it makes me want to publish it even more. I consider this as a witness to my faith, not promoting it.

The Pope’s words carry weight and influence. We should listen to them. I don’t see any problem in witnessing to a conversion experience through Medjugorje, but I do see a conflict in continuing to promote the current Medjugorje messages, especially as Pope Francis has expressed his personal opinion about the apparitions and so the messages as ‘not having much value’. It may be that he is simply saying that they are not a factor or condition for pilgrims wanting to queue to repent and reconcile with God and the Church.

Anyway, he has raised doubts about the veracity of the messages, and so I personally have to consider if to continue to spread and promote these as I have done since 2000. Probably better I now try to live the messages, be the message with my own personal life, as the priest commands the congregation to do at the end of every Mass.

There is always the danger of misleading others because of our misplaced beliefs or by poor example.

I am also conscious of the fact that the Pope is the Shepherd of the Church, there to protect the sheep and lead them; to call back those who have strayed or are in error. We must be attentive to his voice.

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Last edited by bluecross on Sun May 14, 2017 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:34 pm 
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I've actually always admired how Pope Francis isn't afraid to share his personal opinion; to me, it indicates humility and shows that he doesn't want people to think of him as something more than a human being.

We've seen how some Catholics have been up in arms when the pope has expressed his personal opinions on other matters -- such as marriage, homosexuality, Protestantism, etc. But his personal opinions have remained just that; Church teachings haven't been changed.

The problem is that so many Catholics elevate the pope's personal opinion to dogma, when that's exactly the opposite of what he wants. Personally, I think it's more far fetched to believe that the visionaries saw Our Lady in the beginning but now do not, and yet still pretend to.

Still, I see as much positive in what Pope Francis said as I do negative. In fact, based on what he said, I foresee a certain sort of recognition for Medjugorje (albeit the first days) that will enable devotion to the Queen of Peace to be spread. Her messages from the early days are generally the same call as they are today.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:46 pm 
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I wonder what the response would be from the visionaries if requested by Pope Francis not to give public witness to the apparitions and messages?

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:50 pm 
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I, like many Medjugorje lovers, will be somewhat surprised by the Pope's words about Medjugorje. But as Francis has often told us, God is a God of surprises.

While being surprised that Pope Francis is not able to recognize the authenticity of what Our Lady is and has been achieving in Medjugorje all these years, I do love his openness and readiness to speak without diplomatic fuzziness.

I think Francis has been deeply influenced by the mass of false messages and 'apparitions' that have emerged from South America but I don't think that explains the situation fully. I actually think that the Pope is guilty of a mistake he has often warned us about, namely 'putting God in a box'. I think he is not, by nature, inclined to welcome the outwardly 'miraculous'. For him, God's actions and love are best encountered in the people he meets every day. But eventually, I am certain he will come to accept that God does act in ways that he thought unlikely if not impossible. He will see this when the secrets take place.

But the other aspect to the Pope's words is that Medjugorje is clearly not going to be 'recommended' by the Church in the near future. I cannot help feeling that this might not be a bad thing. The impact of Medjugorje over the past 35 or so years has been achieved without the help of the Church hierarchy!


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:23 pm 
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The final instruction from Our Lady in Mirjana’s most recent message:

Pray for your shepherds to have all the more light, so as to be able to illuminate all those who live in darkness.

Was God’s chosen Shepherd of the Church responding yesterday with his own illuminating message to the sheep of his flock?

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Is it true that 3 local bishops have already denounced medjugorje?

If the visionaries were requested not to do these public apparitions but they carried on regardless;
this in & of itself would make the pope question whether or not they were all on the same page.

Are they 'with us or against us'? Or are they rogues?

I wouldn't come to the conclusion that it is a character flaw or spiritual flaw or close mindedness of Pope Francis that makes him a bit cynical perhaps.

The whole nature of the visionaries having an extra-ordinary 'subjective' supernatural experience & for this to somehow be related to the masses as a whole; Well there are a lot of problems that come along with this.
Pope Francis has mentioned often that he does not agree with proselytising, My guess is that he see's the holy spirit working directly & in a first hand manner in other people's lives and meeting them where they are at in their particular journey's. It can't be something sold 'whole-sale', it's not something uniform.
That's maybe why he's not keen on the messages that are to speak to everyone- in all their uniqueness and levels of spiritual maturity.
I think that's why he gets so much
flack too from others' who want things in very definite concrete terms. Pope Francis leaves a lot of room to manoeuvre!!!
But i see this particular style of his as very biblical too; we all must get our own oil for our lamps; we can't all sit around
trying to bask in the light of others. We can't be spoon fed faith. I think its dangerous actually to try to live in a particular shepherds pocket.

However, with all that said; i do believe that there is unseen spiritual realities and that Our Lady is appearing there to the visionaries.
Another problem may be that people could feel they need to go to Medjugorje in order to 'get close' to Our Lady; (Haven't the visionaries themselves been mobbed?) when
our faith tells us that when each of us pray & go to mass; she's there with us too & alongside us.
This part of our faith could get lost- blessed are those who believe and don't see!
I try to listen & understand the messages as a form of encouragement, but i know i must also 'get my own oil'.
If anything they're experiences makes me yearn to be more holy and to know God.
If it were all some elaborate hoax; i can still see it as a miracle as it shows clearly how God has brought so much good out of something perhaps 'dubious'.

I don't think Pope Francis is going to try to micro-manage Medjugorje or clip its' wings. I'd be surprised if he did.
When it comes to the secrets anyway; most of these are all future orientated so impossible to know either way.
It's nothing that can be considered/grasped in the here and now and perhaps that's why he deems all consideration of this nature to be 'not of much value'.

Unless the Pope explicitly states that corruption is going on ; i'd still like to go there one day.
All this tells me is how important discernment really is!
Got to pray for this every day. Such complications!


Last edited by Maryh on Sun May 14, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:41 pm 
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The apparitions cannot be 'erased'. They can be taken out of the public realm certainly, but no one has the authority to command the Mother of God to cease coming to her children.


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