[bluecross]

I don't think they will give shrine status if any kind of on-going deception has been found to be occurring here. Already it's proven to be a place where there has been struggles to regulate it by the local bishops; A lack of co-operation or even respect when it comes to public apparitions. It would be like some kind of reward for bad behaviour to then label the place a shrine would it not?

And I thought I was the only cynic on the forum!

Go there! Looking through the window restricts one’s view.

[Brahms&Liszt]

lets remember the Pope was clear it was his personal opinion-not official. He said that for a reason. Its no different to St. John Paul II's personal opinion in favour. The problem with approving the early time is when did it stop? Its not the same with Kibeho because that concerned only certain visionaries; this doesnt, therefore its more murky.
There must be serious reasons why the commission, the CDF and the Pope have issues with the later times. The problem is you are more or less saying they are lying or collectively mentally unbalanced. Lets not forget St. John XXIII signed the decree against Sr Faustina. If Medjugorje is true-still true then no ruling will come; God wont allow it.
There are issues though for me-even though I experienced several unexplainable things there in 1999
1) the eschatology there is very confusing. They dont all agree. Mirjana talked about the second coming (or hinted). Ivan says its not part of it
2) Fr Slavko was meant to be there after the apparitions finished (according to one message) so he could compile a dossier type thing on the events
3) what is the involvment of the visionaries in businesses related to Medjugorje
4) there is confusion over the secrets. Why have not all six chosen a priest?
5) the goal posts seem to change concerning when and how the first secret will be revealed. Is Mirjana definately alive?

[Prodigals]

l The problem with approving the early time is when did it stop?

You are spot on, B&L.

When did the fraud first start? Was it 1989? 1996? 2005?

Was I on my knees there during the real part or the fake part?

And where is the dividing line between Mary's real messages, and the ones the visionaries made up in their basement?

[bluecross]

I keep hearing this word ‘fraud’. The Pope hasn’t mentioned the word. He has said he personally doubts the ongoing apparitions.

Now for all the millions who choose not to believe in Lourdes, Fatima or any other recognised phenomenon are they accusing the Church or the visionaries of being fraudulent?

It’s not a condition of faith to believe in apparitions, even those recognised by the Church.

[Brahms&Liszt]

Personally, I dont see any type of declaration coming at all because why would the Pope be looking into the pastoral care of the pilgrims if a negative decision was imminent? I think the most likely scenario is there will be no change unless events take care of themselves one way or another. I also cannot see Shrine status coming without some sort of approval because the Church doesnt like the idea that Catholic get the wrong impression on things, and if Pope Francis maintains his scepticism it doesnt seem likely. It is starting to have a "Grarabandal" feel about it

[Maryh]

I think they are looking closely at the beginning to learn more about its origins.
Sure; it may have been a supernatural reality they experienced BUT from what source was this coming from?


The thing about deception is; in a flock of 100, 99 may be unharmed but there may be one that has been eaten alive unknown-st to everyone. And this 1 will be usually be the weakest and most vulnerable. Easier to disregard.

The criteria they'll be looking at is does this agree with scripture? Always, sometimes...
The less time we spend with the truth, the more likely we are to believe in a lie.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but they deny him by the way they live.


So; is Medjugorje now burning? I say let the holy spirit set a match to it; The gold would then become visible for all to see.
That's real faith.

[Prodigals]

I keep hearing this word ‘fraud’. The Pope hasn’t mentioned the word.

If someone made it up (all or any part of it), then the part that is made up is a fraud, as in fiction, as in not real.

The pope's personal opinion is not germane and irrelevant on this point.

[bluecross]

Pope Francis has made pointed remarks about regular apparitions at set times, and this could be the cut-off point separating the two periods of apparitions.

If this is the case then the start of the ‘weekly’ messages every Thursday was March 1, 1984, when Maija gave this message:

Dear children! I have chosen this parish in a special way and I wish to lead it. I am guarding it in love and I want everyone to be mine. Thank you for having responded tonight. I wish you always to be with me and my Son in ever greater numbers. I shall speak a message to you every Thursday.

Prodigals: I sense you are attempting to put words into the Pope’s mouth. ‘Fraud’ may be your understanding to suit your onslaught against God’s choice to lead the Church, but it is not a word used by the Pope regarding the Medjugorje phenomenon.

[bluecross]

I wonder how the Pope’s envoy at Medjugorje is feeling right now and if he is getting any flak from pilgrims and parishioners over the Pope’s comments on Saturday?

[Prodigals]

why would the Pope be looking into the pastoral care of the pilgrims if a negative decision was imminent?

That depends on what the intention is for the "pastoral care" to the pilgrims. It could be designed to "teach" the pilgrims that no supernatural activity is taking place.

That would fit in with the pope's agenda of wanting to suppress the apparitions and messages as unreal, yet keep the place (Medjugorje) as a wonderful shrine of spiritual refreshment.

[Brahms&Liszt]

I cant see Medjugorje ever lasting as a shrine if a negative verdict came. Why would anyone continue going?

[Prodigals]

I cant see Medjugorje ever lasting as a shrine if a negative verdict came. Why would anyone continue going?

Exactly. It becomes a place difficult to reach that is devoid of all special meaning.

[Prodigals]

I sense you are attempting to put words into the Pope’s mouth.

This is not about the pope's mouth, which already has far too many ill-advised words in it. This is about the precise definition of words.
Fictitious events, made up purposely by anyone to suit their agenda, are frauds, hoaxes.

I, too, have not seen anything claiming the pope has used the word 'fraud'. He prefers his softer word 'doubt' which leaves him wiggle room for later.

[bluecross]

Why would anyone continue going?

Because of the graces that have been flowing there for the past 36 years.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

I cant see Medjugorje ever lasting as a shrine if a negative verdict came. Why would anyone continue going?

Because of the graces that have been flowing there for the past 36 years.

And I would add once again, even if the apparitions were a fraud, the pilgrims, priests, and all the other faithful coming together in Medjugorje have made this a holy place of prayer in honor of Jesus.
IMO, it will never go back to normal regardless of the circumstances.

That said, Medjugorje is a long ways from being a fraud. This is only the Pope's personal opinion, not the official ruling. This needs to be kept in perspective... I get the sense that a small few are starting to jump ship when the hull only has a few drops on it. Trials are good at strengthening our faith. Peter jumped ship when Jesus was taken by the Sanhedrin but in the end he persevered. Hold fast and be patient, this is only the beginning with many more trials (and times of great joy) ahead.

[maryannlucy]

I copied this from a spiritdaily article years ago to remind myself....

FOR YOUR DISCERNMENT: SEERS HAD SAID THAT EVENTS WOULD UNFOLD AFTER FAITH IN APPARITIONS DISAPPEARED
Years ago, it was reported that Vicka Ivankovic, the most prominent seer at the famed apparition site of Medjugorje, had stated that the purported secrets there would begin when all belief in the apparitions seemed to be almost extinguished.
It is an intriguing possibility -- especially in a climate of ecclesiastic intellectualism (and skepticism).
Another alleged Croatian seer, Jim Singer, who now lives near Burlington, Toronto, said years ago that on September 23, 1995, "Our Blessed Mother stated (among other things) that the time is rapidly approaching when God's children will turn their backs on Medjugorje. The gift of Medjugorje will suffer tremendously and will reach the point when it will appear to be extinguished permanently. Many will rejoice and become cynical. Only the steadfast few will remain faithful and loyal few will remain faithful and loyal.... but at a great personal cost, humiliation, and ridicule. Indeed, the pressure will be so great that even the loyal souls will endure periods of serious doubt. However, just when it would seem that this gift is finally dead, Jesus Himself will raise it like the phoenix from the ashes.... And that is when the TRUE understanding of the gifts, and the prophecy of Medjugorje, will begin... but, for many it will be too late."

[Prodigals]

Why would anyone continue going?

Because of the graces that have been flowing there for the past 36 years.

Why 36 years? What precisely happened 36 years ago to cause the graces to start flowing in this obscure place and not in any other?

You see, you can't separate the baby from the bathwater. Holy Father, take note.

[bluecross]

I don’t understand your reasoning, Prodigals.

Are you saying that there are graces at Medjugorje only because Our Lady is present there?

Do you understand where grace comes from?

[crystal]

I have not posted on this forum for a long, long time, although I peruse the subjects and replies regularly. But I have to say that is surprising to me (and upsetting) to read heretofore Medjugorje devotees suddenly seem to turn tail at a very few words from the Pope. I don't think he meant that to happen, and if people read his comments in full context, that becomes clear (as many have already stated on this forum).

So what if the pope has trouble with the concept of Mary giving messages to a chosen few? She has always had her own, divinely-inspired reasons for doing so. To question her, or to all of a sudden dismiss all her wonderful messages of love and patience and peace because of what the Pope said on Saturday saddens and disheartens me. I think she knew what is coming (according to what some have quoted Vicka as saying years ago), and although before this I couldn't even imagine people losing their faith in Medjugorje, I am watching it happen before my very eyes. Because of only a very few words. What bothers me is that, for some,the Pope's words are being taken as Gospel truth, and so some members are scrambling to change what they believe and know in light of their limited understanding of what he said. Even the pope said that what he believed was a personal opinion, and several members have offered explanations as to why the concept of a "Postmistress" bothers him. But Mary knows what she is doing, and she also knows us all, inside and out. I will continue to say the rosary, listen to the messages, believe in the apparitions and let them transform my life, as they so wonderfully have done over the last decade.

[Prodigals]

bc, God's grace is available anywhere and everywhere. But I do not go on pilgrimage to Hoboken New Jersey to access it, because there is nothing endemically spiritual about that place, nor any special connection to Heaven there.

The same is true of Medjugorje. Remove the connection of Our Lady and Her visitations and messages, and it is nothing more than just another town.

And like B&L indicated, why would anyone want to go there to get grace that is available anywhere.

[irish m]

crystal I am with you Medjugorje always and forever no matter what anyone says
God Bless
Love irish M
ps Her heart will triumph just wait and see

[Medjugorjeprayers]

But Mary knows what she is doing, and she also knows us all, inside and out. I will continue to say the rosary, listen to the messages, believe in the apparitions and let them transform my life, as they so wonderfully have done over the last decade.

crystal I am with you Medjugorje always and forever no matter what anyone says
God Bless

Amen to that!

[Prodigals]

the pope has trouble with the concept

Let us be clear. The pope is most certainly entitled to his personal opinion, and he has exercised his right and given it to us, and we can see pretty clearly the doubts he has. But unless he speaks to me ex-cathedra I am under no obligation to accept his opinion. To some of us, his position is not surprising because his thoughts about the apparitions have been this way for a long time. Let us remember that it was he, years ago while he was sill a cardinal in Buenos Aires, who prevented Ivan from having his apparition in a church in that city. Does that not tell you something of his long-term beliefs?

However, I and others do not turn to the pope in this matter to tell us what to think. There are those who think that the pope as the top guy in the Church is always completely correct in whatever he says and does, and as crystal says "the Pope's words are being taken as Gospel truth". This denies that there have been many popes who have been very wrong on many things. Check Church history for popes like Leo X, John XII and others.

Right now Pope Francis and others in the Holy See are at war with each other over the Medjugorje matter. I have no interest in trying to peek through the Vatican window and follow the twists and turns of the battle as it rages. I haven't got the time or interest to keep up with which side seems to be currently winning, or to guess at what strategies each side might employ, or to try to decode snippets of statements and press releases to figure our what might happen next. I already know the end of this story.

I already know where I stand because I have received a grace that the pope obviously has not. Mary, my mother, has called to me. And when I responded, she revealed Herself to me. I know the truth of Medjugorje. Sadly, this truth has not yet been revealed to Francis our Pope. And so, I move on confidently without him, praying that the scales will fall from his eyes. But I have hope for him, because as crystal said 'Mary knows what she is doing'.

And in the end, She will triumph.

[SaintMark]

I believe that God never withdraws his grace, only that we draw ourselves away from God’s grace through sin.

I shouldn't speculate so I apologize for that. Mary's apparitions in Medjugorje are an incredible grace. We all know that they had a beginning and likewise will have an end when she stops appearing there. I'm simply quoting Mirjana in saying that her presence is a time of immeasurable grace. God doesn't withdraw grace but he will withdraw the apparitions one day.

I'm sensing a lot of fear in this discussion. Don't worry about the future, it will be God's will.

Pray! Pray! Pray!

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Here's a picture of me almost thirty years ago, approx. the same age as the visionaries, in a deep sleep at the edge of Heaven in complete bliss after attending Mass at St. James. This field used to be located just outside the grounds of the church. It probably doesn't exist today.

I ended up sleeping there for hours in between prayer and just feeling absolutely wonderful. I think I might have died and gone to Heaven. I have never felt like that since. And no I wasn't under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Rather, I was full of the Holy Spirit!

I truly believe if we could somehow get Pope Francis into that field or similar environment, he might just change his mind

The Medjugorje pilgrimage is a unique spiritual experience that is life-changing for most all who are blessed to go. It is unmatched. I have been to a lot of places but nothing can compare to Medjugorje. This is why my (our) belief in this place is strong and cannot be easily
shaken...