[ministryvalues]

The Pope calls his personal views on Medjugorje "nasty" . There are many, many "traditional" Catholics who already believe this to be true. Pope Francis has been quite harsh towards Catholic traditionalists. I read a lot of Catholic news and many people feel Pope Francis is downright insulting towards their deeply held beliefs. There are many. many upset people.

It is unfortunate that Pope Francis uses words like "Our Lady is not a Post Office clerk" that make journalists and the worldly smile while bringing sadness to so many believers.

[Maryh]

What exactly has pope Francis said that is so insulting?
Does anyone have any link?

[ministryvalues]

I personally find his words insulting and hurtful .. Not sure why a link is needed... He says Our Lady is not a post office clerk. There are many ways for him to express his doubts about Medjugorje but he chooses to be "nasty" about it...His word, not mine.

[bluecross]

I agree with you, Steve, that the Pope’s remarks has generated sadness among many followers of Medjugorje, and perhaps some delight among those who oppose all things Medjugorje.

But today’s Sunday Gospel begins with the words of Jesus: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God still, and trust in me.” (Coincidently, a popular passage chosen to be read at funerals!)

What disappoints me is that the claims of the visionaries are now open to doubt. And if the Church has suspected anything untoward then it had a duty to speak out and protect the faithful from being misled.

Pope Francis Tweeted today: “Let us all ask for the gift to understand God’s word.”

If we have encountered God at Medjugorje and witnessed and personally experienced the workings of the Holy Spirit, then our hearts should be filled with joy and not disappointment. In this way we are blessed to become witnesses to the Word of God.

The apparitions have never been important, real or not. Our Lady does not usurp her Son in prominence. What is important is that the world knows that God exists and that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is very much evident at Medjugorje, prompting people to reconciliation with God and each other. I’ve said before, Our Lady has no need of approval. She was already approved by God to be the Mother of Jesus and her most important message to the world has always been: “Do whatever he tells you.”

[Medjugorjeprayers]

As Thomas Paine (English-American) once quoted:

"These are the times that try men's souls,"

I certainly think with the state of affairs in our world and all the uncertainty, we are definitely experiencing these times...

Good thing God has blessed us with Mary's presence here in Medjugorje I know it has really helped me gain perspective...

[ministryvalues]

What I find interesting is after al the study no evidence of fraud or hoax has been discovered.. I think this is an important fact...The Pope may personally believe the visionaries are not reliable but that is quite different than saying that they have discovered a scheme.

[bluecross]

Fraud or hoax suggests that the visionaries are deliberately falsifying their accounts of apparitions and messages. But they could be affected psychologically, or even under pressure from other influences. They have undergone all kinds of scientific examinations and never found to be wanting.

So what has the Commission found out for it to suggest doubt about the ongoing claims of apparitions?

Could it be lifestyle?

In the Kiebho phenomenon, the study stated: “In contrast, the evolution of the alleged subsequent visionaries, especially after the apparitions were over, reflects disquieting personal situations, which have reinforced the existing reservations in regard to them and discouraged ecclesiastical authorities from proposing them to the faithful as points of reference.”

This may also be the criteria the Medjugorje Commission has applied to its study, and would not prevent the Vatican from accepting the initial apparitions and approving Medjugorje with some kind of official status.

It is this approach also that has concerned Cardinal Müller, Prefect of the CDF, who is opposed to separating the phenomenon in this way. It is also the approach that worries the Mostar bishop, hence his recent press release to the world media attempting to discredit the early days of the apparitions. His thinking is that if the early days can be shown to be false then all that follows is false.

And that is why Cardinal Müller has gone to great lengths to support the Mostar bishop by stating: “ “A pastoral phenomenon can’t be built on false foundations.” He is opposing the efforts of Pope Francis to have the first phase of the apparitions approved.

This is why Pope Francis held the Prefect to account in his response on the flight home from Fatima. He discovered that Müller was attempting to hijack the Commission’s report with negative views gathered from other cardinals who had no input into the Commission enquiry. But Pope Francis is no fool and has publicly exposed the attempts of Cardinal Müller to slow down the process of Vatican approval for the early apparitions.

The appointment of his own personal envoy to Medjugorje was a bolt out of the blue for Muller and the Mostar bishop, hence the outburst by Ratko Peric when he realised what was happening. Archbishop Hoser will report directly to Pope Francis, not the CDF.

Also matters which affect evangelisation, which Medjugorje does, has been taken out of the CDF’s control for the future and given to another congregation.

So the future looks positive for Medjugorje. It will have some kind of shrine status, probably under the jurisdiction of the Holy See. And this really is the crux of the matter, official recognition of Medjugorje as a place of prayer and reconciliation, supported by the Church.

More background at this link: http://www.themedjugorjewitness.org/med ... ine-status

[stunnedbyit]

I think Pope Francis is a man of great love and compassion but many people would agree that he's said some mystifying things while Pope. On countless occasions, Priests and theologians have had to try and put an orthodox spin to confusing statements that he's made, i.e. statements on Homosexuality, atheism and Islam.
I am hoping that this is another of his eccentric moments rather than a comment based on "inside information".

[Maryh]

His thinking is that if the early days can be shown to be false then all that follows is false.

How interesting that Pope Francis has pursued a separate line of enquiry!
Would these bishops opinions not be valid either?
None of them are on the same page it appears!

[bluecross]

It was Pope Benedict XVI who set up the International Commission of enquiry and appointed its members, presided over by Cardinal Ruini and, as Pope Francis mentioned in his comments on the plane, the commission was composed of good theologians, bishops and cardinals.

It is Pope Francis who has the final say on the outcome of the Commission’s report which he has already stated on more than one occasions, “is very good”.

Pope Francis is not pursuing a separate line of enquiry, even by appointing his own envoy to Medjugorje. This is a process of taking the next step and probably moving toward an official pronouncement on the commission study. “In the end you will hear some words.” concluded Pope Francis in his comment about Medjugorje on Saturday.

This latest commission on Medjugorje is the fourth I am aware of.

[Maryh]

Thanks Bluecross for the clarification.

Its a complicated business.

[Prodigals]

What disappoints me is that the claims of the visionaries are now open to doubt.

Only to those of weak faith who are easily swayed. Lourdes was full of such people who went along with Judge Ribes who threatened to put Bernadette in prison.

[maryannlucy]

Here is part of what the Pope said
Medjugorje. Medjugorje. A commission was formed, headed by Cardinal Ruini. Benedict XVI made it. I, at the end of 2013 the beginning of 2014, I received the result from Cardinal Ruini. It was commission good theologians, bishops, cardinals, but good. Very good. And the commission. The Ruini report was very, very good. Then there were some doubts in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and the Congregation judged it opportune to send each one of the members of this Feria quarta (CNA Editor’s note: “Feria Quarta” is a once-a-month meeting in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith during which current cases are examined) all the documentation, even those that seemed to be against the Ruini report. I received a notification – I remember it was a Saturday evening, late evening… and it didn’t seem right. It was like putting up for auction – excuse me the word – the Ruini report which was very well done. And Sunday morning the prefect received a letter from me that said that instead of sending them to the Feria Quarta, they they would send the opinions to me personally.

++++
I don't understand the Pope's remark about 'putting up for auction'....does someone know or can tell me what this means? I sense that he didn't like Medjugorje from the beginning and is trying to squelch it...(why would he hustle to insist they send their opinions to him personally?) What a heartbreak. I guess I'll just brace myself for the worst after Archbishop leaves this summer.

[Maryh]

I don't understand the Pope's remark about 'putting up for auction'....does someone know or can tell me what this means?

My guess if something were put up for auction- that it was open to the highest bidder...people are able to raise or lower
the stakes based on whether they see something as valuable/credible or not? To give an appraisal of its worth.?
Meaning the pope is open to all input and if people can't put their money where their mouth is; its sale or no sale.
He's allowing everyone a say about that Ruini report- for better or worse.
Don't really know MaryAnnLucy to be honest.

Somehow i get the impression its all the problems associated with private revelation that the pope is not keen on.
There are problems associated with it.
He see's Our Lady as 'his Mother' not as an official post master that is sending so many messages. There is something of a second hand, perfunctory relationship with the latter situation. This is his personal view. It makes Our Lady more exclusive and inaccessible in certain ways; this dependent relationship on others to know what she wants of us.
He's making this distinction. I can see where he's coming from too.

[bluecross]

Reading between the lines... http://www.themedjugorjewitness.org

[maryannlucy]

From the Medjugorje Witness article "Pope Francis wasted no time informing Cardinal Müller to redirect any opposing views and opinions to himself and not to the Feria IV."

Why would pope francis hurry to stifle a bad report from the commission? No, he was hurrying to stifle the good report from being disseminated to the people at the CDF. Pope Francis has stated over and over that he doesn't feel that the Virgin Mary comes everyday with a message, and as such, he would discourage views favorable to Medjugorje.


The Muslim, Hasan Shushud predicted in the summer of 1980 that a long and decisive apparition would begin near Turkey, but not in Turkey. He said in part, "Mary needs a firm, truthful "yes!" to her plan, and this will not be given at the beginning. Therefore, Mary will be forced to take up a stand-by position. If Mary and her plans are accepted quickly, the suffering will be short-lived. If, however, Rome does not meet Mary with the needed firm, truthful acceptance when God grants to Rome the time freedom to chose, then God once more will have offered peace, joy and love in vain, and mankind will feel the consequences of satan's plans." Hasan Shushud also said in 1980, "Thus, we realize that God has entrusted the Roman Catholic Church with the great responsibility to accept Mary. A God-given authority to this Church means that a "no" to Mary is a "no" on behalf of all of us. Thereby, a door is closed. It also means that, if this Church accepts Mary in truth, humanity also accepts her. A door is then opened for the help God wants to give through Mary."

[bluecross]

Why would pope francis hurry to stifle a bad report from the commission? No, he was hurrying to stifle the good report from being disseminated to the people at the CDF. Pope Francis has stated over and over that he doesn't feel that the Virgin Mary comes everyday with a message, and as such, he would discourage views favorable to Medjugorje.

Simple answer: Benedict XVI chose the Commission members, not the CDF. The report is for the Pope, not the CDF. It is Cardinal Müller who has clamped down on Medjugorje. He sent instructions to bishops around the world and especially in Italy, not to allow the visionaries to witness in their dioceses. It is Cardinal Müller who is attempting to delay any decision on Medjugorje.

Pope Francis is aware of this. That’s why he sent his own man in to Medjugorje to break the deadlock and start implementing the recommendation made in the Commission report. That’s why, as I read it, he spoke about Müller’s attempt to auction the report, and so confuse and delay the Pope making a pronouncement. Müller was lobbying for support against the Commission report.

The Pope’s personal view expressed about the current apparitions doesn’t change the Commission report or recommendation.

And it might be worth considering that the Commission enquiry may have come up with some evidence that has led them to the conclusion that the ongoing apparitions should not be taken into account. If they do, then they may work against the truth of the early apparitions.

This is why the local bishop has desperately attempted to discredit the visionaries witness and claims of the early days. If they were lying then, then there can be no truth in later claims. However, separate the time frames and all the accusations about the visionaries and their families making fortunes, leaves the original claims untainted.

This is what the Pope is attempting to do by following through on the Commission’s belief that the early apparitions are worthy of further investigation. He is seeking to legitimise Our Lady’s earlier appearances.

Mirjana is the key to the ongoing apparitions. If the secrets fail to materialise then it will show that her claims are not valid.

One of the visionaries, I think it was Vicka, has suggested that probably not all the visionaries secrets are the same. They don’t share with each other what secrets they have been given.

The one who claims to have been chosen to reveal 10 secrets to the world is Mirjana. This task is self-proclaimed. But, in my opinion, it won’t be Fr Petar who will make the announcements.

Thereby, a door is closed.

An interesting comment, but in the same press conference Pope Francis had this to say about him meeting with President Trump.

"There are always doors that are not closed. We need to find the doors that are at least partly open, go in, and talk about things we have in common and go forward, step by step,"

The same can be said for the Pope’s approach to Medjugorje. He has found a door for the Holy See to enter. Unfortunately there are those who have a foot behind the door trying to keep him out. It seems to me that both Muller and Peric are saying the door to Medjugorje must not be opened, not even partially.

[bluecross]

Even The Muslim Times is reporting on the Pope’s comments about Medjugorje!
https://themuslimtimes.info/2017/05/15/ ... authentic/

[ministryvalues]

blue cross.. .. good work on this issue.. One can make the argument that Pope Francis is protecting Medjugorje from Card. Mueller's designs to view the events negatively in total

[bluecross]

Glad you see it that way, Steve. The Pope is nobody’s fool. It would probably suit Cardinal Müller to delay any decision until the appointment of a new pope (perhaps himself!)

Always a sign of good things coming Medjugorje’s way when the local bishop starts sounding off as he did again recently. He likes to strike first and, as the local bishop, would be briefed on what is coming down the line from Rome.

[ministryvalues]

mueller probably wanted to use the "condemn" word and Pope francis sought a delay by asking for more info on early aaparitions

[bluecross]

The request for more information on the early apparitions surprises me. This is the fourth commission (although the third never got off the ground) and all the evidence from previous commissions is in the hands of the Vatican, even ongoing information is forwarded to the Holy See.

I was also surprised when the CDF said it would take time to go through every message (another delaying tactic) when the messages have been constantly checked as a matter of course by previous Commissions.

It is also unfortunate that some of the principals involved with the earlier apparitions are no longer alive.

I don’t know what the cut-off date is that defines the early part of the apparitions, perhaps the first year, but the fact that the visionaries were classed as children at that time and there are recordings made is significant.

I have a gut feeling that when commercial interests began to creep in on Medjugorje then lifestyles may be brought into question and perhaps therefore this may taint for some people the reality of Our Lady’s appearances and its core message at the beginning. Hence the suggestion to separate the time period.

If the Vatican okay this period then they are approving only this timeframe and would have sufficient evidence to make a judgement in supporting Medjugorje as a place of prayer and reconciliation. Even without making a judgement on the apparitions the Holy See can still give shrine status to Medjugorje. Status is not dependent on apparitions and messages, hence the reason the Pope may have expressed his doubt in the way he did. He is not saying he won’t ‘legitimise’ Medjugorje with Vatican approval. And again he has emphasised that the apparitions form part of private revelation.

The Pope is more interested in pilgrims reconciling with God and the Church. The priority is not the question of apparitions and messages.

I’ve said before, Our Lady does not seek approval for herself. She wants souls to reconcile with God and each other. That’s the mission of the Church, and Pope Francis knows this.

[SaintMark]

I believe this all has a purpose and I'm not concerned. Perhaps it's a sign that this time of grace is coming to an end.

[Maryh]

I don't think they will give shrine status if any kind of on-going deception has been found to be occurring here.
Already it's proven to be a place where there has been struggles to regulate it by the local bishops;
A lack of co-operation or even respect when it comes to public apparitions.
It would be like some kind of reward for bad behaviour to then label the place a shrine would it not?

[bluecross]

Perhaps it's a sign that this time of grace is coming to an end.

I believe that God never withdraws his grace, only that we draw ourselves away from God’s grace through sin.

The mercy of God through the Sacrament of Reconciliation is one of the greatest graces witnessed at Medjugorje.