[bluecross]

Ivan has arrived in Medjugorje for the summer months, so has Marija.

Ivan is supposedly witnessing to pilgrims on top of Apparition Hill three morning a week, and heading up the hill again at night (not sure about the frequency) with his prayer group to receive Our Lady’s apparition, usually after 10:00pm so as not to clash with the evening services at St James.

Marija is probably likely to continue to receive her daily apparitions in her private chapel.

And Mirjana? Will she continue to meet in public with Our Lady at the Blue Cross on the 2nd of the month?

The crowds of pilgrims will continue to climb the hill to be present at the apparitions, but in light of the Pope’s personal expression of doubt about the ongoing apparitions are we about to witness a conflict between the Shepherd of Mother Church and the apparition who the Pope says is not the Mother of Jesus.

I sense this has already begun, even with the Medjugorje messages, one on the 25th of the month, quickly followed by one on the 2nd of each month. My impression is that there are two different voices. I find it difficult to believe that it is the same mother speaking to the two visionaries. The tone is different. The length of the messages are different. And that’s not taking into account the repetitive message that Ivan gives out after his apparitions.

Of course, all this is just my “personal” opinion, but now that Pope Francis has made clear his disbelief in the current apparitions, do I turn a deaf ear to his comment. Do I start turning a deaf ear to anything he says that may disturb me in the future, or may have said in the past? Do I start picking and choosing what I personally want to believe whatever the Pope thinks, even though he speaks with the voice of authority?

It is reported today by a friend of Ivan that the visionary telephoned him on Sunday asking his opinion [of the Pope’s comment about Medjugorje]. The friend replied that Pope Francis was a great gift for the Church and he would read his remarks on Medjugorje.

I would add that Medjugorje is also a great gift for the Church – and the Pope recognises this, even though he doubts the veracity of ongoing apparitions, and therefore its messages.

I would hate to see any “jealousy and wrangling” among those who believe in ALL the Medjugorje apparitions and those who choose to accept only the first seven as outlined in the Commission report. For as St Paul said to the Corinthians: “What could be more unspiritual than your slogans, I am for Paul and I am for Apollos ?”

[ministryvalues]

Dear Blue Cross.. I think you are making a bit too much about "doubts". One point that has been very much overlooked is that the commission and Pope Francics (despite their "doubts") had no interest in saying the "later apparitions" are not supernatural. They have been positive on the character of all the seers from what has been reported thus far. No case has been made that the visionaries are engaged in a scheme , fraud or hoax.

Who does not have "doubts" about the secrets.. So Pope Francis and the committee are simply being smart about the "later apparitions"

There is a "third choice" by the way.. We can follow the Visionaries, the Pope or THE COMMISSION that investigated ALL OF IT. It is important to listen to the careful words of Pope Francis ...His doubts as he said are his "personal opinion" It is not part of the Pope's infallibility nor is it an issue for the Magisterium.

The committee has spoken and they believe the origins of Medjugorje ae authentic and are supernatural in nature.

I think right now is a time to truly, truly rejoice.

Historic Moment for Many Catholics … Vatican Investigation Concludes “Medjugorje Apparitions are Real”

http://www.mysticpost.com/2017/05/histo ... ions-real/

[Medjugorjeprayers]

I think it's pretty simple. If the visionaries messages or the Pope's for that matter draw us closer to Christ then accept it. Take it to your spiritual advisor if it appears to fall into a grey area. Provide one example where the seers shared a message that was contradictory to Church teaching. For me it's not a matter of either or but of following the doctrine of the Church.

There are so many other things out there that are drawing us away from our faith and Medjugorje isn't one of them.

[Brahms&Liszt]

My personal opinion is that as long as the Pope's view is only his personal one, then its fine. However if that changes to something official then it changes everything as far as the second group of messages is concerned. Problem is unless something supernatural happens to change his mind, there is no reason to think his official stance if it ever comes will be different to his personal one.While its wonderful about the first seven days, I think there are now massive doubts about the rest-unfortunately!

[bluecross]

Steve, you misunderstand the point I was trying to make: I accept the good news that the Commission has voted to recognise the first seven apparitions, and I have long promoted that Medjugorje would be given status as a shrine, or pontifical sanctuary, or whatever else it may be termed as. That was an essential part of the brief given to the two latest Commisions, both by Bendict XVI: the latest international commission and the previous handed to the Bosnia Herzegovina bishop’s conference.

Here’s the Tornielli piece about the second phase of the apparitions.

The doubts about the development of the phenomenon
With regard to the second phase of the apparitions, the commission took note of the heavy interference caused by the conflict between the bishop and the Franciscans of the parish, as well as the fact that the apparitions, pre-announced and programmed individually for each seer continued with repetitive messages. These visions continued despite the youngsters had said they would end, however that actually has never happened. There is then the issue of the “secrets” of the somewhat apocalyptic flavor that the seers claim to have been revealed from the apparition. On this second stage, the committee voted in two steps. Firstly, taking into account the spiritual fruits of Medjugorje but leaving aside the behaviors of the seers. On this point, 3 members and 3 experts say there are positive outcomes, 4 members and 3 experts say they are mixed, with a majority of positive, effects and the remaining 3 experts claim there are mixed positive and negative effects. If, in addition to the spiritual fruits, the behaviours of the seers is also taken into account, eight members and four experts believe that an opinion cannot be expressed, while two other members have voted against the supernatural nature of the phenomenon.

From this we can see the committee expressed not only an opinion but also cast a vote, just as it did for the first phase. And we know Pope Francis has weighed in with his personal opinion.

So we take the positive and go with it – and that’s the point I was making. It is not necessary to push or create divisions just because the Commission or the Pope has expressed doubts. But there are Medjugorje followers who will continue to follow and take on board the apparitions and messages which the Commission and the Pope have cast doubt upon. And some will criticise the Pope and Commission for doing so. That has happened on the forum already.

It will be certain that the parish website and its Radio Station, if they comes under the scope of the Pontifical Sanctuary, will not be allowed to promote the ongoing messages or the apparitions. The visionaries will also be discouraged from receiving the apparitions in public for the same reason they are not allowed to do so now and why Cardinal Müller put a stop to visionaries promoting the apparitions in churches. To allow this would deem that the Church has endorsed the current apparitions which it clearly hasn’t.

We still don’t know if Pope Francis will pronounce that the first seven are worthy of belief. The Commission has voted, but the Pope has the final say.

And giving credence to the first seven apparitions doesn’t endorse all that has followed. The danger for Medjugorje, and that’s why the local bishop was so vociferous in condemning the early apparitions and accusing the seers of lying, was he knew if he could prove the apparitions during the first week were false then all that followed was false. But the logic is not the same when the first seven days are found to be true. What follows after can still be false, but it would not deny the truth of the first seven days.

Hoser picked up on this when he spoke with the bishop Ratko: He said in a report today, “Of course, Mostar’s bishop Ratko Peric reaffirms his position clearly contrary to the veracity of the apparitions, and emphasises that what is false cannot be built on.”

So while the Mostar bishop continues to believe that all claims are false, there will be people who will choose to believe that all the apparitions and messages are true. Then there will be those who will stay with the Commission’s decision to accept the truth of the first seven apparitions, and leave it at that.

The Pope has said the alleged continuing apparitions “don’t have much value”. It’s like he is pointing out the law of diminishing returns. Just how many repeat messages are necessary when there are hundreds of similar messages already given and published. The grace is not simply in Our Lady’s appearances, but in the Sacraments of the Church and the work of the Holy Spirit. If Our Lady’s apparitions were deemed false, the grace is still available in the Sacraments. The value is in the grace of conversion and the Sacraments.

And I agree, that it is important to listen to the words of the Holy Father, even his personal opinion, because, as I have said already, he speaks with authority. Some will choose not to heed his personal opinon, others will, some will do so only when it suits them.

As for rejoicing. It’s an everyday occurrence at Medjugorje because of the conversion experiences, despite what the Church may confirm or not when it comes to apparitions and messages.

My conversion experience at Medjugorje wasn’t because of any message of Our Lady, or an apparition experience, but when the Holy Spirit spoke loud and clear in my heart saying God’s love for me was greater than all of my sins. I came away rejoicing and went to a priest to confess my sins and receive absolution. Life has never been the same since.

From the CCC:

1989: The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1996: Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

2003: Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character – sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues – charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

[HOF_13]

Guys you must follow the Church.

The Pope didn't say to stop following the messages of Medjugorje but if you are now going to reject what the Vatican says and follow Medjugorje then you are really living in danger.

Follow the Church and you will not be disappointed.

[HOF_13]

Ivan has arrived in Medjugorje for the summer months, so has Marija.

Ivan is supposedly witnessing to pilgrims on top of Apparition Hill three morning a week, and heading up the hill again at night (not sure about the frequency) with his prayer group to receive Our Lady’s apparition, usually after 10:00pm so as not to clash with the evening services at St James.

Marija is probably likely to continue to receive her daily apparitions in her private chapel.

And Mirjana? Will she continue to meet in public with Our Lady at the Blue Cross on the 2nd of the month?

The crowds of pilgrims will continue to climb the hill to be present at the apparitions, but in light of the Pope’s personal expression of doubt about the ongoing apparitions are we about to witness a conflict between the Shepherd of Mother Church and the apparition who the Pope says is not the Mother of Jesus.

I sense this has already begun, even with the Medjugorje messages, one on the 25th of the month, quickly followed by one on the 2nd of each month. My impression is that there are two different voices. I find it difficult to believe that it is the same mother speaking to the two visionaries. The tone is different. The length of the messages are different. And that’s not taking into account the repetitive message that Ivan gives out after his apparitions.

Of course, all this is just my “personal” opinion, but now that Pope Francis has made clear his disbelief in the current apparitions, do I turn a deaf ear to his comment. Do I start turning a deaf ear to anything he says that may disturb me in the future, or may have said in the past? Do I start picking and choosing what I personally want to believe whatever the Pope thinks, even though he speaks with the voice of authority?

It is reported today by a friend of Ivan that the visionary telephoned him on Sunday asking his opinion [of the Pope’s comment about Medjugorje]. The friend replied that Pope Francis was a great gift for the Church and he would read his remarks on Medjugorje.

I would add that Medjugorje is also a great gift for the Church – and the Pope recognises this, even though he doubts the veracity of ongoing apparitions, and therefore its messages.

I would hate to see any “jealousy and wrangling” among those who believe in ALL the Medjugorje apparitions and those who choose to accept only the first seven as outlined in the Commission report. For as St Paul said to the Corinthians: “What could be more unspiritual than your slogans, I am for Paul and I am for Apollos ?”

Bluecross, can i ask humbly and without pointing the finger why you feel the messages on the 2nd are different? Why did you stop supporting them? What was it about the language?

At the moment I am just so confused by everything I just want to go the Blessed Sacrament and "cast my care on the Lord".


I too have had a little trouble with language being very convoluted in recent messages

e.g apostles of my love, it is up to you to spread the love of my Son to all those who have not come to know it; you, the little lights of the world, whom I am teaching with motherly love to shine clearly with full brilliance.

My most beloved Son illuminates lives, dispels darkness; and my motherly love which carries me to you is inexpressible, mysterious but real

These were the only two things I had trouble with lately as just on first glance, it sounds slightly new-agey and the tone is quite different from other messages.

I don't know, as I said before, daily mass, prayer,fasting will lead me to jesus.

[ActionReq]

The seers are instruments. The
messages are God's handiwork.
Francis separated the handiwork
from the instruments.
Hypothetical question: If the
instruments used to craft the
handiwork become corrupt. Does
this say something to us about
the handiwork? If God were to
know that the instruments of
His choice would eventually
become corrupt. Would God use
the instruments or would He
search for other instruments?
If the impact of the handiwork
would be greater with instruments
that eventually become corrupt
than with instruments that
disappear in a monastery so
that nobody can communicate
with them, would God choose
the first or the latter instrument?

Or questioned in another way in
a very extreme example:
Would you continue to read
teachings of somebody who in the
end turned out to having been
a murderer, or something similar?

Another question:
Swords into plowshares is acceptable.
Is plowshares into swords acceptable?

My God's world is like this: If I
take the first seven days, I take
it all, and if not I leave it all.

No hypocrisy. No mediocrity. No tepidity.

Lately me worries theologians they
become too much like diplomats.
They know well that if they accept
7 days, they popularly accept it all.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

The Pope didn't say to stop following the messages of Medjugorje but if you are now going to reject what the Vatican says and follow Medjugorje then you are really living in danger.

Hof_13, You lost me on that one? Your statement seems to be contradictory.

I will follow the Pope as long as he follows Holy Scripture and the teachings of the Church. The Vatican is not a dictatorship where we cannot exercise our free will and expression of faith. Yes there can be consequences to this if we choose the wrong path and that is why we must walk the straight and narrow and keep our focus on God. Danger will only come if I'm led away from Christ.

So again, I ask, what danger do you or anyone else here see in the messages?

[HOF_13]

sorry i didn't reread that, what i mean to say is

if you are going to under any circumstance, follow medjugorje even is the commission says it is completely diabolical then that is dangerous.

i dont think thats going to happen but if it just worries me how many medjugorje followers make these messages the centre of their faith and their whole belief in catholicism would be greatly diminishes if the whole thing turns out to be a hoax. jesus still loves them...

anyways this whole debate over the last few days has exhausted me, im going to detach myself for a bit as i think everyone should.

[bluecross]

I have several doubts about the authenticity of the messages to Mirjana, but I don’t feel it would be right for me to share them and maybe discourage others. As Mirjana has said herself, we each have to arrive at our own understanding of what the messages mean, and she includes herself in this.

I find that the Daily Mass readings give me much peace and more than enough to ponder on.

I still publish the message to Marija, although in the light of what the Pope has said I shall have to consider if to continue.

Don’t get me wrong. I would encourage anyone to go to Medjugorje. I want to return there myself as I haven‘t been back for five years because of health issues. It’s a very special place of grace. I refer to it as a place of Perpetual Pentecost.

[Maryh]

When they say the first 7 days are supernatural in origin; have they
said whether its of 'divine' origin or not? This would be important for me to know.
How are they supposed to prove that? Even some Christians are into the occult.

Also; I will want a very clear explanation as to why the latter messages are no longer worthy of consideration.
This makes me believe that there is something deceptive going on or that something has gone wrong.
It's all or nothing as far as i'm concerned.
Harsh but that's the conclusion I've come to after much consideration of situations like this.
I have decided i will not tolerate deception or corruption on any level in the name of Christian unity or on the premise that
i'm to love my enemy and forgive & forget.
I know we're all only human and prone to faults and failings and maybe imperfect instruments but when it comes to corrupt leadership; No i will drop that like its hot. I'm not going along with it.
Jesus is the truth. So any gathering that is built on deception will
not give Jesus the honour he deserves. On some level; i think Jesus is being mocked when people are not good witnesses to truth even in small everyday matters or when some of his flock advance at the expense of others.
Also i'm sure some people will get hurt in serious ways that may not even be apparent despite everyone else feeling blessed and full of the graces of God because of prayer and the sacraments.

So with all that being said; i DO believe that Our Lady has communicated with the visionaries there; but there are more questions than answers.
The notion that God is going to punish the world through chastisements is counter to the gospel message of a merciful God. Is this hinted at in the secrets?
I've been bleating on here trying to understand the messages for a long time now but i don't know if they've changed my heart. I don't actually know.

So I'll be listening to the Pope's opinion, he's more information on the matter than i do; Does he understand where the local bishops are coming from that are taking such drastic action to stop this? Are they trying to stop the work of God? Its a big deal.
I don't want to have to take sides.

To say that the Pope can only approve certain apparitions and then not latter ones out of some 'cleverness' and to not cause alarm at the prospect of secrets also doesn't go down well with me. That sounds like its a manipulative and underhanded way to proceed.

I'm taking a leaf out of Hof's_13 book and bringing it to Jesus in prayer.
If we take our eyes of Jesus, then we all start to sink.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

it just worries me how many medjugorje followers make these messages the centre of their faith and their whole belief in catholicism would be greatly diminishes if the whole thing turns out to be a hoax. jesus still loves them...

From what I've gathered on this forum, I do not know of anyone here who "make these messages the centre of their faith." I think most would agree that the messages are an instrument of our faith with Christ at the center.

I feel your frustration in all of this as it has been a trial of late. I respect and appreciate your compassion and worry for others. I was watching a news report on the Pope last night where he showed his great love and mercy for those with Huntington disease. He spent over an hour shaking hands and hugging each one of those in attendance. His endurance at his age is amazing.

Just remember that the Church has been around for long time, and guided by the Holy Spirit, will get this right. In the meantime, there will be some bumps along the way and as BL stated, the Pope has not told anyone not to go to Medjurgorje but rather, he has set up a commission recently to address the pastoral needs of the pilgrims. This doesn't look like someone who is trying to get rid of something to me.

The Church by setting up so many studies and commissions on Medjugorje is looking out for our best interests as well as their own. The last thing the Church wants is to mislead the faithful and worse yet, a schism over this. If they temporarily choose the wrong path, this could very well be the case. But eventually, the truth will be known. It was also well know that St. John Paul II encouraged pilgrims to go to Medjugorje even though it wasn't officially approved and this is where we are at today.

[Maryh]

From what I've gathered on this forum, I do not know of anyone here who "make these messages the centre of their faith.

I've thought the opposite from what I've observed on here MP.
People seem very heavily invested in the integrity of the seers even more so than the Pope.

People have expressed grief, shock and that their faith was shaken, their conversion seemed centred around going to Medjugorje,
They've even expressed that they felt highly insulted and "How dare the Pope put himself above the Mother of God", that 'Mary will suffer if we don't listen'.
People have expressed their disappointment in other people for even expressing their doubts, i even felt like i let people down. Not good. We can't emotionally blackmail others into believing anything.
Heavy stuff.

My lesson is to put my trust in God alone, not man.
[I think the seers messages have reminded us of this too in the past.]

I've a fatalistic attitude about it now. If it's of God, No man can stop it.
And God makes everything work together for the good of those who love him. Bringing good from evil is his speciality.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

I've thought the opposite from what I've observed on here MP.

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am and even our Pope.

There is no doubt that Medjugorje is important to most here including myself. But I firmly believe that all here would not lose their faith if Medjugorje turned out to be a fraud. Speaking for myself, It would definitely be painful though.

Your contributions have meant a lot here

[bluecross]

[Maryh]

Awh Thanks MP, I probably bleat too much on here at times. I love having religious discussions.
Its very encouraging.
Hearing so many speak up in defence of Medjugorje is already something good that has come from all this.
Your perspective is likely to be more accurate; it's probably pessimistic of me to presume it's Medjugorje or bust for everyone when it comes
to having faith.
Hopefully this is only a storm in a teacup; There's no harm in having a test of the faith.
Most of the saints ended up going through the desert and some even found God when living as total hermits cut off from everyone didn't they?

Bluecross! BAAA!

[bluecross]

I didn’t post the graphic because I thought you were bleating, Maryh.

That thought never crossed my mind.

Talk away, that’s what the forum is for.

[Maryh]

Thanks Bluecross.
Your graphic made me really laugh.
Truth be told; I've been feeling like a sheep of late so i over-identified with it.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Ok BC, you posted the strange sheep after my last comment. It's Friday afternoon where I live and I'm feeling game to hear the riddle....

[bluecross]

I’l like to hear you interpretation or understanding, MP

It’s late Friday night in my neck of the woods and I’m off to bed soon.

I have a feeling I might be counting sheep tonight!

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Hmmm... Can't figure it out so I'll give you a riddle to think about as well - Where exactly was this photo taken? Town and proximity within the town.
Don't worry about it tonight. Everything is better in the morning....

[bluecross]

It’s Medjugorje, on the road up to Podbrdo and Krizevac.

[ActionReq]

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Me%C4 ... 17.6629672
Click on the above:
I like riddles.
Exactly here is where this was taken.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Can't get nothing past you guys but granted this was fairly easy if you've been to Medjugorje. Nice work on the map Action Req. (I think you just broke the world record for the longest internet link)
Maybe you can solve BC's sheep photo puzzle for me. Don't worry, I can take it if it pertains to me

Now that you know the answer to my riddle, does it still look like this today? I mean, are there still sheep being herded down the road like in ancient Israel?

We traveled this road every day as we stayed at a home a stones throw from the Krizevac trail head.

Soon I will be revealing a location relating to the Medjugorje area that I guarantee no one here, not even Pete will be able to identify....