[bluecross]

I did see her letter, gtc, but like all of us, she doesn’t know the nitty-gritty details of the Commission report.

The Pope does.

[Maryh]

I liked this link GTC, important to remember to watch out for the snares!
Forget this all the time.

How excellent you've written a book to witness MP! A man of many talents!

[gtc]

BC,

Yes, she does not. But she is well connected to the visionaries, so I have a lot of respect for her and I pay attention to what she has to say. She also is in contact with (I believe) Mirjana, so she may have some insights she cannot reveal, although I doubt the visionaries know the nitty-gritty that is in the report.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

How excellent you've written a book to witness MP! A man of many talents!

Thanks for the kind words Maryh but this remains to be seen... I would be better represented as a jack of a few trades but master at none.

[bluecross]

I read again today the interpretation Sr Emmanuel sent out about the comments Pope Francis made about Medjugorje on his way back from Fatima.

One point she did not address was the Pope’s statement: “This is not the Mother of Jesus.”

No matter what claims Sr Emmanuel of any other Medjugorje apologist put forward to challenge the Pope’s statement, there isn’t anyone who can prove that the Pope’s argument is invalid.

On one hand we have the claims of two seers who say the Mother of Jesus appears to them and gives a monthly message. Against these claims is the Pope’s personal opinion that the apparition is not the Mother of Jesus.

So how do the two seers back their claim or support their argument?

Likewise, how does the Pope support his personal opinion?

The seers have opened themselves to investigation by co-operating with the Church’s investigation commission; the Pope will have drawn on the evidence presented by the Commission and the teaching of the Catholic Church on matters Mary.

It is the Commission report that has raised doubts about the ongoing apparitions, but as yet there are no published details on what has led the commission members to come to their conclusion. But it is certain that Pope Francis will know.

For Pope Francis to present his ‘personal’ opinion to the world press travelling on the flight cannot be without purpose. He wanted the world to know his ‘personal’ opinion and knew that this would be quickly disseminated around the world (and more widely read than any of Our Lady’s messages).

In reality, what the Pope is saying is that the Mother of Jesus is also the Mother of the Church. So when he says that the claims of ongoing apparitions at set times is not the Mother of Jesus, he is saying that the ‘apparition’ does not represent the Mother of the Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a teaching source for Mary’s role as Mother of the Church.

Following the Commission of the Yugoslavia bishops, Cardinal Kuharic, head of the commission said in 1993: “We bishops, after a three-year-long commission study accept Medjugorje as a holy place, AS A SHRINE. This means we have nothing against it if someone venerates the Mother of God in a manner also in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church.”

So while the Pope may be expressing his ‘personal’ opinion about the ongoing apparitions, his role is also to guide the faithful in venerating the Mother of Jesus in “a manner in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church” –– hence his move to protect the tree producing the fruit and speaking against the claims of ongoing apparitions (and messages) at set times. From his ‘personal’ point of view, he does not want the faithful to be misled.

[irish m]

BC can you tell me the difference between Fatima and Medjugorje for the children were told to come on certain days and times and any other apparitions I rest my case
God Bless you all
love Irish M
Ps our ladys heart will Triumph

[bluecross]

BC can you tell me the difference between Fatima and Medjugorje for the children were told to come on certain days and times and any other apparitions I rest my case

Perhaps that’s a question you should address to Pope Francis and the Medjugorje Commission.

The question I keep asking myself is just why did Pope Francis express his personal view so publicly AND on the 100th anniversary of Fatima. What was the point of doing this if it wasn’t a message he wanted to send around the world? He knew the impact it would create.

[bluecross]

It’s interesting to note that there is only one out of the entire collection of Medjugorje messages where Our Lady refers to herself as the Mother of Jesus.

It was very recent, last October, and to Mirjana.

The message started:

Dear children, The Holy Spirit, according to the Heavenly Father, made me the mother - the mother of Jesus - and by this alone, also your mother.

I wonder if Pope Francis had this message in mind when he stated it was his personal opinion the ongoing apparitions at Medjugorje were not the Mother of Jesus?

In June of the same year, 2016, Our Lady also mentioned herself as Mother of the Church –– again to Mirjana –– and only on this occasion.

Dear children, As the Mother of the Church, as your mother, I am smiling as I look at you: how you are coming to me, how you are gathering around me, how you are seeking me.

[Prodigals]

The question I keep asking myself is just why did Pope Francis express his personal view so publicly AND on the 100th anniversary of Fatima.

Well, bc, seems that there are only two possible answers.

Either it was the execution of a carefully crafted strategy to advance his particular agenda regarding Medjugorje (whatever it secretly might be).

Or, the Holy Father never heard the old saying 'Loose lips sink ships'.

[gtc]

Prodigals, I am more inclined to the latter than the former. I cannot get past how he cannot come to grips with this, and it is evident in his comments. He has had a tendency to speak openly in these Q&A sessions, not just about Medjugorje, but many topics. So it leads me to believe he is exposing his own conflict to the world. I am not sure that is always in the best interest of the Church, but it is what it is.

My inclination to continue to think this goes back to his statement the first time he spoke of this, when he said, "The problem with Medjugorje...".

In any event, the truth is really what matters, and time will reveal that to everyone, including the Pope.

[bluecross]

Paolo Brosio, journalist and TV presenter, and the most widely known promoter in Italy of all things Medjugorje, has spoken about the recent comments of Pope Francis regarding the ongoing apparitions.

Yesterday he confirmed to media sources he was very upset about the Pope’s remarks made on the flight back from Fatima but is now persuaded by the Holy Father’s doubts.

Brosio has set up a charity to build a hospital at Medjugorje and last year was invited to meet with Pope Francis at the Vatican where he witnessed to his conversion at Medjugorje.

[bluecross]

My inclination to continue to think this goes back to his statement the first time he spoke of this, when he said, "The problem with Medjugorje...".

Interesting observation, gtc.

Deacon Dick Donnelly (Protect the Pope) wrote this piece on his blog over three years ago which I feel provides an insight into the Pope’s reasoning about claims of ongoing apparitions at Medjugorje.

Pope Francis appears to criticise the Medjugorje visionaries claim to receive daily messages from Our Lady

BY DEACON NICK DONNELLY, ON NOVEMBER 15TH, 2013

During a recent homily at one of his daily Masses at St Martha’s Pope Francis appears to criticise the Medjugorje visionaries claim to receive daily messages from Our Lady, ‘“But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady”. And the Pope commented: “But, look, Our Lady is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day.”

Pope Francis’ criticism was part of his more general critique of a curiosity that seeks after miracles:

‘The Kingdom of God is among us: do not seek strange things, do not seek novelties with this worldly curiosity. Let us allow the Spirit to lead us forward in that wisdom, which is like a soft breeze. This is the Spirit of the Kingdom of God, of which Jesus speaks. So be it.”

In the Gospel, the Pope underlined, “we find ourselves before another spirit, contrary to the wisdom of God: the spirit of curiosity”.

“And when we want to be the masters of the projects of God, of the future, of things, to know everything, to have everything in hand… the Pharisees asked Jesus, ‘When will the Kingdom of God come?’ Curious! They wanted to know the date, the day… The spirit of curiosity distances us from the Spirit of wisdom because all that interests us is the details, the news, the little stories of the day. Oh, how will this come about? It is the how: it is the spirit of the how! And the spirit of curiosity is not a good spirit. It is the spirit of dispersion, of distancing oneself from God, the spirit of talking too much. And Jesus also tells us something interesting: this spirit of curiosity, which is worldly, leads us to confusion.”

Curiosity, the Pope continued, impels us to want to feel that the Lord is here or rather there, or leads us to say: “But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady”. And the Pope commented: “But, look, Our Lady is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day.”

Such responses to these situations, he affirmed, “distance us from the Gospel, from the Holy Spirit, from peace and wisdom, from the glory of God, from the beauty of God.”

“Jesus says that the Kingdom of God does not come in a way that attracts attention: it comes by wisdom.”

“ ‘The Kingdom of God is among you,’ said Jesus, and it is this action of the Holy Spirit, which gives us wisdom and peace. The Kingdom of God does not come in (a state of) confusion, just as God did not speak to the prophet Elijah in the wind, in the storm (but) he spoke in the soft breeze, the breeze of wisdom.”

“Saint Teresa of the Child Jesus would say that she had always to stop herself before the spirit of curiosity,” he said. “When she spoke with another sister and this sister was telling a story about the family, about people, sometimes the subject would change, and she would want to know the end of the story. But she felt that this was not the spirit of God, because it was a spirit of dispersion, of curiosity.

Protect the Pope comment: When the Holy Father’s criticism is set in the context of Archbishop Müller’s directive to the US Church via the Apostolic Nuncio that the faithful must not attend meetings that accept the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions it appears that the Holy See is gradually preparing the faithful for the report of the special commission set up to investigate the truth, or otherwise, of the alleged Marian apparitions of Medjugorje.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/11 ... en1-746498

Followers of Medjugorje dismissed the claim that the Pope was referring to Medjugorje, but time has proven otherwise, and we can see from this report that the Pope has drawn on Scripture, pointing to the danger of a spirit of curiosity leading to confusion.

That confusion has manifested very clearly since the Pope made his remarks on the way back from Fatima. He has met the spirit of confusion head on and identified it by saying “this is not the Mother of Jesus”.

The Pope has tested the spirit and now the confusion is clearly to be seen among the people for they recognise the Pope as their shepherd. They know his voice. He speaks with authority and with a spirit of wisdom.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

The Pope has tested the spirit and now the confusion is clearly to be seen among the people for they recognise the Pope as their shepherd. They know his voice. He speaks with authority and with a spirit of wisdom.

1. The Pope has not yet officially condemned any part of Medjugorje. He has only expressed his personal opinion.
2. The Pope's personal opinion is in conflict with that of St. John Paul II's more favorable opinion towards Medjugorje although the present Pope does have more information via commission reports to base his opinion.
3. The Pope appears to agree with the Ruini Report concerning the acceptance of the validity of the first seven days of the apparitions.
4. The Vatican has not warned pilgrims to avoid going to Medjugorje even though they have expressed some doubts concerning the ongoing apparitions. Rather, they are studying ways to better help the pastoral needs of the pilgrims traveling to Medjugorje.
5. Speaking from my personal opinion, just as the president in the US is outspoken at times via twitter, so is our Pope on the Papal plane. I think he got ahead of himself a bit here. What the Pope has said recently is nothing new, only this time he made sure everyone would know what he was referring to. Regardless, I love and respect Pope Francis dearly.

[Prodigals]

1. The Pope has not yet officially condemned any part of Medjugorje. He has only expressed his personal opinion.

You are not understanding a very important and unchangeable reality. When this pope (or any pope for that matter) says anything, the world parses every word. There is no distinction as to "only his personal opinion".

bc touched on it when he said that the pope is recognized as the shepherd, not just sometimes, but 27/7. He speaks - the world listens and analyzes. In effect, there is no such category as the pope's "personal opinion".

You would like to give him the benefit of the doubt in saying that he "got ahead of himself". Your love of him has blinded you. There is absolutely no ambiguity in "this is not the Mother of Jesus".

And if, at a later date, he tries to "walk that back" he will make himself look like a fool.

[bluecross]

I admire you hopeful heart, MP, but there are signs surrounding Medjugorje that should not be ignored just because they challenge our hope and belief in circumstances and events we believe to be true. The Pope – a Jesuit – is not stupid on matters of faith. He confesses to being a sinner but he is the elected Head of the Catholic Church, an inspired choice made by Cardinals, with the prompting of the Holy Spirit. He is a Shepherd who leads from the front, pointing out the dangers to faith and the Church along the way to the sheep who choose to listen to his voice. He is well aware that there will be voices ready to oppose him and so chooses not the official channel, the Vatican Press Office, to express his ‘personal view’ but to a wide ranging group of journalists representing the world’s Catholic media. He desires to share his ‘personal’ view. The world is interested in his ‘personal’ view and opinions. It reports on what he says every day. He knows this. He knows his voice can be heard in the world when another voice is screaming to silence him. He has the smell of the sheep upon him. He doesn’t mind mixing it with the media because he knows the media will always attempt to spin or twirl his opinion. So he speaks direct. His voice was recorded –– word for word. There is no doubting what he said. He wanted the world to know that he has ‘personal’ doubts about the ongoing apparitions. He wanted the world to know that this isn’t the Mother of Jesus. He clarified previous postmistress references he made. Now there can be no doubt, no twirling by those for and those against the Medjugorje phenomenon. He even wanted the visionaries to know! A friend of Ivan’s reported that the seer rang him the next day to ask his opinion on what the Pope had said. So the seers know; and probably know what else is coming down the line if and when the Vatican does take over at Medjugorje. It could be that the Pope’s comments were designed to prepare the way for a more formal announcement after the completion of his envoy’s report. It would not surprise me if an announcement was made as soon as June 24 to coincide with the anniversary of Medjugorje and also the Nativity of John the Baptist.

1. The Pope does not condemn people. And he will not condemn the Medjugorje seers.

2. Pope Francis’ opinion in not in conflict with JPII. Pope Francis is prepared to make Medjugorje a Pontifical Sanctuary. He recognises the good fruits. He is not opposed to Medjugorje and shrine-making or pilgrimages. He encourages this.

3. Pope Francis has said the Ruini report is very good. He has not said he agrees with all of its recommendations but he has taken steps to improve the pastoral needs of the parish and pilgrims and has also expressed doubts about the veracity of the ongoing apparitions, as concluded by the vote taken by the Commission members on this question. As to what else is in the Ruini report, we don’t know. But the Pope does. He has this advantage over any opinion or belief we may hold. It may even colour his personal opinion about the ongoing apparitions.

4. The Vatican has issued some guidelines to pilgrims travelling to Medjugorje. The Parish also does, even to visiting priests. The parish stills falls under the jurisdiction of the bishop of Mostar.

5. “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”. We clap when we are pleased and complain when we’re not.

[Medjugorjeprayers]

We clap when we are pleased and complain when we’re not.

I have to say that I fall into the pleased category when it comes to Medjugorje My experience in Medjugorje came after the first seven days. What happened to my sister and I was real regardless. I don't think even an angel of our Lord could convince me/us otherwise. I know there have been other Pilgrims who have had miraculous healings and other events attributed to their pilgrimage there. You can't take that away from them either.

And if Medjugorje is on trial - I/we will be a witness to its innocence and integrity to the best of my/our ability. I have chosen to brush the cobwebs off my unfinished book to present my case, not out of anger or spite, but out of my great Love for Mother Mary, who has so kindly come to my/our aid in our time of need...

The Church is in a very, very difficult position when and if they officially announce the ongoing apparitions are false. How could you support a place that you claim has false visions but yet at the same time encourage the faithful to come and experience the good fruits. As always, God will have the final say.

And if, at a later date, he tries to "walk that back" he will make himself look like a fool.

I guess this would be a good test for his humility. I think he would gladly do it if the Holy Spirit is speaking to his heart. Pope Francis is courageous and is not worried what others think about himself...

[bluecross]

I have to say that I fall into the pleased category when it comes to Medjugorje My experience in Medjugorje came after the first seven days. What happened to my sister and I was real regardless. I don't think even an angel of our Lord could convince me/us otherwise. I know there have been other Pilgrims who have had miraculous healings and other events attributed to their pilgrimage there. You can't take that away from them either.

No one, and certainly not me, would even attempt to deny the conversion experiences of pilgrims at Medjugorje. The Holy Spirit blows where it chooses. This is the point I am stressing; that the fruits, the conversions, the reconciliations are prompted by the Holy Spirit.

I would encourage anyone to go to Medjugorje and experience the graces, but not because of the messages, not because of any apparitions, but because the Holy Spirit’s presence at Medjugorje is tangible. This is what the Pope recognises, the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

As for Mary coming to Medjugorje, she did no come on her own account but was sent by the Holy Spirit. the same Spirit who prompted her to visit her cousin Elizabeth, the same Spirit who filled Elizabeth and inspired her to ask why she had been “honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord”.

Supposing we take Pope Francis at his word and accept the current apparitions are not the mother of Jesus, does this stop the work of the Holy Spirit at Medjugorje. Has this work ever ceased? Has the Holy Spirit ever stopped renewing the face of the earth?

“I will not leave your orphans” promised Jesus, “the Father will give you another Advocate to be with you forever.”

The Church is in a very, very difficult position when and if they officially announce the ongoing apparitions are false. How could you support a place that you claim has false visions but yet at the same time encourage the faithful to come and experience the good fruits.

The Church will not make any ‘official’ announcement about false apparitions. The Pope has expressed his view on this. Nothing more needs to be said. I doubt it will prevent pilgrims who have experinced Medjugorje from wanting to return there. And they will continue to witness to others at home. Even the Church itself will encourage pilgrimages to Medjugorje at diocesan and parish level.

And if or when the Holy See assumes responsibility for the parish of Medjugorje, then the messages and apparitions will not be disseminated by the parish authorities any longer. Steps will be taken to prevent the seers from having apparitions in public, or they will be discouraged from doing so and in a way testing their obedience to the Church. If the apparition is truly the Mother of Jesus then she will not encourage disobedience to the Church of which she is the Mother also.

[crystal]

I've been following this thread with interest, but since I haven't been part of the forum for many years, I'm a little confused. Bluecross, are you some kind of Church authority? A priest?

[bluecross]

Crystal, why is it I sense you have another question lined up for me if I answer his one?

[maryannlucy]

And if or when the Holy See assumes responsibility for the parish of Medjugorje, then the messages and apparitions will not be disseminated by the parish authorities any longer. Steps will be taken to prevent the seers from having apparitions in public, or they will be discouraged from doing so and in away testing their obedience to the Church.

How do you know this to be the case? If pope francis told us on the plane that in his opinion there were no benefits to eating vegetables, would you stop eating vegetables? You are a little too eager to see this apparition series stop, and I have to ask, why?

[bluecross]

maryannlucy, I am simply observing the process taken by the Church on the Medjugorje phenomenon. The ‘clampdown’ began when Cardinal Müller notified bishops around the world to remind them of the official stance of the Church regarding the phenomenon, and that because the apparitions had not been approved and were still under investigation then anything deemed to promote Medjugorje, including the witnessing of seers and receiving their apparitions in churches was to be discouraged and even prevented.

This particularly affected the personal witnessing of Ivan in America and some of the seers visiting Italy especially. All this is understandable and has always been the position taken by the Church. However it started to get out of hand and tickets were being sold for events, so raising the concern of Church authorities at the Vatican.

Because the Church had not approved the phenomenon it did not want the faithful to be confused on this issue and be given the impression everything was hunky-dory by allowing the seers to witness to Medjugorje and have apparitions in Church when the apparitions had not been deemed worthy of belief.

So by my reasoning, the same process will happen when the Vatican takes over at Medjugorje. It will not allow events or give a voice to the apparitions that have not been deemed worthy of belief.

It is not that I am eager for the apparitions to stop. I take no notice of them anyway. I’m just saying that the Church will continue to impose restrictions on the visionaries and therefore ongoing apparitions, even at Medjugorje, if and when it assumes some overall responsibility for the shrine.

[maryannlucy]

thank you for your clarifying post, bluecross

[Prodigals]

How do you know this to be the case?

If the pope has already stated that whatever is taking place currently in Medjugorje is not from the Mother of God (i.e., some sort of unspecified heretical activity), and therefore potentially dangerous to the faithful, it would be irresponsible for him to permit it to continue and he would be considered derelict in his duty as head of the Church.

[ActionReq]

If the pope has already stated that whatever is taking place currently in Medjugorje is not from the Mother of God (i.e., some sort of unspecified heretical activity), and therefore potentially dangerous to the faithful, it would be irresponsible for him to permit it to continue and he would be considered derelict in his duty as head of the Church.

I also feel they are trying to
accommodate in such a way as
to not loose the pilgrimage
destination and at the same
time get rid of the seers.
The first seven days. When
in reality nothing was said
by the apparition, that was
not already said elsewhere.

So the last day of the seven:
WEDNESDAY, JULY 1ST 1981
No words were reported.
Mary was apparently bored by
the "sign thing request persistence
of the seers", the devil takes it
from there. Or so it seems to me
decided the commission.

That is then what Peric claims:
Peric: Suddenly the apparition
changes its mind, and now a
sign can be granted.

It makes logic sense, that in the
eyes of the theologian, it doesn't.

[bluecross]

I don’t see the Church casting aside the seers. If anything it will protect them. They are a treasure to the Church, chosen by Our Lady at the beginning of the apparitions. There were seven, not six. Milka, Marija’s sister, was the seventh seer who saw Our Lady on the first day.

The following report is from two years ago: June 10, 2015

A report in the Croatian newspaper Vecernji List says that the Vatican is taking steps to restrict the Medjugorje visionaries from witnessing around the world because they do not have sufficient theological knowledge and are often left unsupported and without enough strong links with Church institutions.

It adds that the Church authorities do not have a problem with the visionaries transmitting messages and will ensure the seers are protected with supervision and ties to Church structures.

The report also says that no decision will be made on the apparitions until they have ended, which is likely to be after the last visionary has died.

The parish of Medjugorje will come under greater scrutiny by the Holy See which is satisfied with the pastoral work of the local Franciscans, but not with everything that is happening with the visonaries and around them.