[irish m]

Pope Francis in his Wednesdays general audience in St Peters square God cannot be God without man he told the audience (do not know what he is at)
God Bless you all
love Irish M

[johntt]

Pope Francis in his Wednesdays general audience in St Peters square God cannot be God without man he told the audience (do not know what he is at)
God Bless you all
love Irish M

Please don't bring the criticisms of Pope Francis to this forum. He has been attacked relentlessly by many of the traditionalist community on the internet who spend their time looking for little quotes that they can twist into something they can criticize.

The Pope's homily on Wednesday can be read at:
https://zenit.org/articles/general-audi ... -our-hope/

Here is a quote from the homily:

Dear brothers and sisters, we are never alone. We can be far, hostile; we can even say we are “without God.” But Jesus Christ’s Gospel reveals to us that God cannot be without us: He will never be a God “without man”; it is He who cannot be without us, and this is a great mystery! God cannot be God without man: this is a great mystery! And this certainty is the source of our hope, which we find kept in all the invocations of the Our Father, When we are in need of help, Jesus does not tell us to be resigned and to shut ourselves in ourselves, but to turn to the Father and to ask Him with trust. All our needs, the most evident and daily as food, health, work to that of being forgiven and sustained in temptations, are not the mirror of our solitude: instead, there is a Father who always looks at us with love, and who certainly does not abandon us.

The critics, I fear, have closed their hearts to Francis and in doing so to Jesus as well.

[irish m]

can you tell me what the Pope means For as I know God is God He doesn't need man man needs God
God Bless you all
love Irish M
Ps I was not criticizing the Pope I was asking what is he doing for I don't know what he means

Ps do not jump to conclusions

[bluecross]

Irish M... In the Book of Genesis (2 : 18) we learn that “it is not good that the man should be alone”, so God set about creating ‘helpmates’ for the man.

Also in Genesis (1 : 27) we learn that “God created man in the image of himself...”

So if it is not good that man should be alone and that man is also made in the image of God, then isn’t it possible that God also has needs like the man he made in the image of himself. We need God, God needs us.

If God never created the world (and therefore mankind), would there be a need for God to exist? Can love exist on its own? Love needs someone to love.

Perhaps changing the title of the thread would help, as it doesn’t really represent the claim you are making about not understanding what the Pope means?

Just trying to help clear up any misunderstanding.

[irish m]

Thanks BC for that and as I am not up with all the scriptures Thank you again
God Bless you
Love irish M

[Prodigals]

then isn’t it possible that God also has needs like the man he made in the image of himself.

No. That violates recognized Catholic theology on the nature of God.

[Prodigals]

Can love exist on its own?

Yes.

[Prodigals]

God needs us.

Catholic theology of God teaches that this is not true.

[bluecross]

Prodigals: You didn’t mention Pope Francis!

Question: Does Catholic theology teach if it is true or not that the Mother of God needs us?

bluecross wrote:
Can love exist on its own?

Prodigals answered:

Yes.

BC asks: How?

[ActionReq]

bluecross wrote:
God needs us.

Catholic theology of God teaches that this is not true.

So catholic theology is wrong.
Today Francis is right.
And today Bluecross is right.
God created us because
He was feeling lonely.
No dogma's here. Just ccc.
So I can have my opinion
and everybody here.

[irish m]

I am starting to get confused who is right and who is wrong now
God Bless you
Love Irish M
Ps sorry I asked this Question should for stuck with my own thinking

[ActionReq]

It is because this one is through logic.
As BC mentioned:

God created man in the image of Himself
Then God said:
It is not good that man should be alone.

So if it is not good that man should be alone
and that man is also made in the image of
God, then the man is like God and God is like
the man, because we are created in His
likeness. (we are kind of a copy of Him). If
you feel lonely, then God has that feeling
also, because you are like God. And thus
God is like you. QED

Logic!

Maybe we say that God doesn't need us,
because that places God in the light of
having some sort of weakness, and we
don't like to portray God as feeble. So we
invented that God needs nothing.
Very primitive thinking. invented with a
purpose that is not well thought. God is
strong in His weakness. Yes He can do
anything (allmighty) but not under all
circumstances and in all time frames..
Good that Francis wants to end this dwelling.

[bluecross]

johntt gave sound advice, irish m.

Read all of the Pope’s homily in the context of God being our loving Father.

It’s not about who is right or wrong, but accepting the word of God as preached by Pope Francis.

What a sad state for someone to be told God does not need them.

How sad it is for any child to be told their father does not need them.

[irish m]

Thanks everyone sometimes I find it difficult to get my head round scriptures (I am not the brightest )
God Bless you all
love Irish M
Ps Thanks again

[Prodigals]

bluecross wrote:
Can love exist on its own?

Prodigals answered:

Yes.

BC asks: How?

Since this is a forum on Medjugorje topics, I don't want to divert it into a long discussion on the theology of God, which has no end.

Men and women, Catholics and otherwise, have debated for centuries trying to come to an understanding of the nature of God - people like Plato, Boethius, Origen, Catherine of Sienna, Augustine, Aquinas, Pascal, Kant, Merton, Neumann, C.S. Lewis, Ratzinger, Albert the Great - the list is long.

The topic of the theology of God is deep, and is the stuff of severe headaches for those who dive deeply into its confusing waters.

A great philosopher and theologian of the Catholic Church, St. Anselm of Canterbury (1093-1109), a Benedictine monk, defined God as “that which nothing greater can be conceived”. He stated that it was possible for man to reach God in some measure with the human mind, but to comprehend Him was impossible.

However, we can attempt to comprehend the nature of God by looking at His attributes, because God’s very nature is His attributes.

As to "Love", Scripture says that “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16). Of the many attributes of God (both positive and negative), this is probably the most elemental thing that can be said about God. The reverse is also true: Love is God’s essence. Understand: God is not just capable of love - He is love itself. If God was not love, then this would be a lack of something. It would be something that God is not. And this would be an imperfection. And if this being has an imperfection (such as this), then the being is incomplete, and therefore is not God.

Try to understand it this way: The sentence 'God exists' is actually incorrect. God does not "exist" - He is existence itself. St. Thomas Aquinas explains this mystery as “Ipsum Esse Subsistens", where he says that in God there is no real distinction between being (esse or act of existing) and essence itself. God is Unconditioned Being Itself. The nature of God is the very thing itself. The same is true of "Love".

Crucial point to understand: God is the thing we call 'love', not just a being who can potentially be a lover and give love. And since God is eternally all things- with or without His Creation in existence - then 'love' (aka God) exists eternally, with or without Creation.

Hard to understand, Irish? You say you would really like to get to the point of being able to say "Now I fully understand God."??? Consider and be at peace with the fact that you can not achieve this. St Augustine said it best: 'Si comprehendis, non est Deus'—'if you understand him, he is not God.'"

If you think you finally understand the nature of God, then it is not God whom you are understanding.

[irish m]

I am going to end this with this if you keep the Two Greatest commandments ( That our lord said ) I don't think you will go to far wrong
God Bless you all
love Irish M
Ps
Prodigals you have losted me there

[Maryh]

But Jesus Christ’s Gospel reveals to us that God cannot be without us: He will never be a God “without man”; it is He who cannot be without us, and this is a great mystery!

Hi Irish M; Even the pope admits this aspect of God is a mystery!

I think when we get 'hung up' on a certain point of our faith; that it is the holy spirit making us want to know & understand more.

So my understanding of what the Pope was talking about was in relation to God's love for us. God loves us so much; he's gone to extraordinary lengths 'not to be without us'..(As shown by Jesus)
He will never be a God "without man" - because we are 'his' and he will never want to be without his creation.
God's fingerprints are all over his creation & cannot be separated.
In God's design; He planned to make us 'for himself' & there is a God shaped emptiness in us that only God can reach.
He will never disregard us and leave us behind & he knows how we need him.
We think we can live 'without God', that we 'don't need' him so i think the Pope is showing the nature of the love of God..love always wants to be with the person.

It's like if there's a man you feel 'in love' with; you start pining for him; like you just cannot be without him, you think about him all the time, your totally enthralled with him.
- This yearning feeling of 'not able to live without' them.

[Maryh]

Since this is a forum on Medjugorje topics, I don't want to divert it into a long discussion on the theology of God, which has no end.

I want you do to this Prodigals! I love your precise analytical posts; No harm in attempting to broach the topic of the theology of God every now & again. Even if we can only manage short glimpses.

Well, yesterday, my priest described how there is a big difference between knowing 'about' God and knowing God; having a genuine relationship with God. This is quite ground breaking stuff for me, God captures my imagination all the time, but i won't really know him until i make a special effort to pray & actually spend time with God & trying to listen to him.
How privileged are we really to think God would actually listen to us when we pray?

[Prodigals]

I Prodigals you have losted me there

Don't worry about it, Irish. Just pour a Jamesons on the rocks and relax.
And pour me one too.

[irish m]

Prodigals wil do after all this do you like an odd jamesons yourself
God Bless you all
love Irish M

[Maryh]

The topic of the theology of God is deep, and is the stuff of severe headaches for those who dive deeply into its confusing waters.

It's funny how so many sermons i listened to online, almost all the priests said how difficult a topic trinity Sunday is to discuss.
Well, i realise now that Pope Francis was describing how God is trinitarian, God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The 'Son' meaning Jesus, who came as a 'high priest' for us. Jesus represents us and intercedes for us to God, the Father.
So when he said God cannot be 'without us', It must be this dynamic he was referring to.
Am i wrong?

Then, the mind boggled for me further when i thought of how the 'son' aspect of God was to be identified before Christ???
All we're told is that in the beginning was 'the word'.
How did God express himself as the 'Son' before Jesus? Would it have been through the angelic beings he made?

Anyway; i ended up pouring myself a glass after all this too; although it wasn't a Jameson!

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Interesting topic - I've enjoyed reading all your posts

Lately I've been having a difficult time just following the basics like prayer, Scripture reading, attending Mass during the week, etc...

I would definitely be classified as someone simple minded in my faith. I would like to expand my knowledge beyond this level but again,
I can't seem to get past the basic precepts.

Tonight while hiking down off the mountain, Mrs. Prayers and I had finished up the ninth and final day of the Novena to the Holy Spirit and were on the 3rd Glorious Mystery of the Rosary. I was heavily meditating on the Decent of the Holy Spirit, so much so, my cell phone made the swoosh noise as I received a text which startled me to the point that I must of jumped two feet into the air and nearly lost my balance while hiking down the steep trail. I didn't fall but I jarred my back and strained my arm. Ya it hurt.

I was reading First Peter this morning where he instructed the faithful that suffering should not be feared as long as a just act on our part proceeded it. In fact, he said it is a "Grace". I can assure you that I didn't feel very graceful at the time.... But his words became more clear to me as I experienced it firsthand. I am definitely one who learns by association.

That is why I love being Catholic because we have such a wealth of information to draw from, the Catechism, Holy Scripture, oral tradition, divine inspiration, etc...

[irish m]

come on Maryh what was it red or white or an orange or what
God Bless you all
love Irish M
Ps or was it something stronger

[ActionReq]

Then, the mind boggled for me further when i thought of how the 'son' aspect of God was to be identified before Christ???
All we're told is that in the beginning was 'the word'.
How did God express himself as the 'Son' before Jesus? Would it have been through the angelic beings he made?

Hear a real mystery!
Something can exist forever, however
there is nothing without a legit origin.

[Prodigals]

How did God express himself as the 'Son' before Jesus?

By giving us glimpses of His Son all throughout the Old Testament. God provided people and events that gave us this glimpse of Christ.

This analysis of the Old Testament is called 'typology' by theologians . It is a doctrine theologians use regarding the relationship of the persons or events of the Old Testament as pre-figuring those of the New Testament. These events or persons in the Old Testament are called 'types', and they are pre-figuring events or aspects of Christ or his revelation as described in the New Testament.

There are many occurrences of Christ's prefigurement in the Old Testament - types of Christ. The Old Testament lamb sacrifices, of course, foreshadowed Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice on the cross.

Another example: In Genesis 22 - Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, the faithful son (Christ) carries the wood (cross) for his own sacrifice (crucifixion).

Jonah in the belly of the whale for three days (Christ in the belly of the earth for three days).

You get the idea.