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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:06 pm 
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So the Church is telling us, 'Yes, you may now officially go to Medjugorje to pray and enjoy the wonderful spiritual environment. It is a worthy place of holiness where, coincidentally, the Blessed Mother appeared to some children many years ago for a few days. Go, pray, and be spiritually refreshed', but not as maryannlucy says
maryannlucy wrote:
but not because of apparitions or visionaries.

Then why should I choose this place to make my pilgrimage?

If that's all it is - a worthy place of general holiness - why would I choose to visit Medjugorje as opposed to going to another more fully accepted Marian apparition place? Certainly, the basilica at Fatima is a more glorious tribute to Our Lady. Lourdes, and its beautiful basilica, has its miraculous healing waters witnessed by its endless lines of orphaned crutches and wheel chairs. And Guadalupe has the actual work of Our Lady's hand in the image that She left on the tilma. Medjugorje, by contrast, is more difficult and costly to reach than the others, and is possessed of only a rather ordinary too-small church.

Why would someone who 'doesn't know' choose to go there if not of the apparitions and messages?

Medjugorje is certainly a wonderful place, full of the loving presence of the Mother of God - of that, my own experiences there leave no doubt. Yes, for those of us who have experienced first-hand the miraculous events that are taking place there still to this very day, we need no sales pitch. But if Holy Mother Church is looking to open wide the doors of Medjugorje to encourage the faithful masses to partake in the unparalleled spiritual treasure of that place, then the advertising campaign they are coming up with will fail to sufficiently motivate many. The Church now says 'Go!', but in fact, with the visionaries still very active, it will be a point of confusion.

As Frank Morgan said in the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Quote:
As Frank Morgan said in the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

Image

Yes, some will be confused, but hasn’t that always been the case with the Medjugorje phenomenon.

What the latest announcement will do is unlock the route for the pilgrims who hesititated beforehand because Medjugorje was ‘not approved’. Now it has an official seal, so to speak, but not the apparitions, part or all, just yet.

Hard to believe but the faithful still do listen to their shepherds and are guided by them. If a bishop of a particular diocese announces he is organising a pilgrimage to Medjugorje, then people will follow, just as they do for Fatima and Lourdes pilgrimages organised by a diocese.

Besides, Francis, wants to see more priests there to administer the Sacraments. The Franciscan struggle at times on this front. They need visiting priests to help haul in the catch.

However, there is no guarantee that any pilgrim will meet one of the visionaries or be able to attend an apparition.

But for first-timers, there is always a curiosity.

I think this move by Pope Francis is more about pilgrims being exploited by some tour companies who advertise meeting with visionaries and attending an apparition, as part of the package.

This happens a lot with Italian groups who come for three-day pilgrimages timed to coincide with Mirjana’s apparition on the second of each month. Having a fixed date makes it convenient for them to do this and book their travel arrangements to fit.

• The man in the picture above –– yes, he does look like Jesus –– is the Flemish artist Hugo van der Goes. He finished life in a very confused state but still managed to produce some wonderful work. I’ve just started to write up on one of his paintings... The Adoration of the Magi. https://www.arnolfinimystery.com/monforte-altarpiece

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Quote:
Why would someone who 'doesn't know' choose to go there if not of the apparitions and messages?

In the message given to Mirjana in April this year, Our Lady said “I am always with you?”

So what did she mean by that?

• I am with you always when you visit Medjugorje?
• I am with you always when you return home from Medjugorje?
• I am with you always, even if you have never been on pilgrimage to Medjugorje?

Another point to consider:

Our Lady has stated in a message to Marija that she will not always be with us. (December 25, 1989)

And to Mirjana she once said: “My eyes and my heart will be here, even when I will no longer appear.” (March 18, 1996)

Many are the pilgrims who eyes and hearts are at Medjugorje, although they are not present there. They carry their experiences of Medjugorje in their heart. They carry Mary in their heart.

We carry all of our loved ones in our hearts dead or alive, present or not. They are always with us.

Jesus is always with us. He told us so. His mother says so in her Medjugorje messages. Her desire is that Jesus becomes central in our lives and all hearts. She desires that we recognise Jesus in all of her children. She wants our atention focused on Jesus. Jesus who is in all hearts. She presents her Son to us. She presents her Son in all hearts to us.

This is the pastoral focus directed by the Franciscan pastors at Medjugorje. As Msgr Hoser said recently: Medjugorje is Christocentric. Yes, Christianity is a cult in the true sense of the word, when people are gathered in faith to praise and worship God.

Fr Svet, who pastored at Medjugorje, defines pilgrimage as: “…a journey, assigned by God. It brings the pilgrim, not only to a physical place, but also out of himself and into the presence of God. All else falls away. There is only the child, his Father, and eternity…”

Mary will not always appear at Medjugorje, but the special grace of the Holy Spirit will always be present, for Jesus has said: “I am always with you.”

Finally, there is an obligation on all who have received graces at Medjugorje to give witness of their conversion to others. This is mostly achieved by example and the change is usually very obvious to family members and friends, maybe even the parish priest). This echo’s the Parable of the Leaven. It is us who bring Medjugorje to others by our example and conversion. We give witness to Christ’s presence in our hearts which have been opened to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and experience the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is the reason why people are curious to see what has brought this change in their loved one or friend. It was the change in my wife after her first visit to Medjugorje that raised my curiosity. I could not understand what had happened to make this change. She never mentioned Mary or the visionaries or the apparitions. But she spoke passionately about the Holy Spirit:

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord
amd my spirit exults in God my Saviour
because he has looked upon his lowly handmaid.”

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Medjugorjeprayers wrote:
The Church is caught between a rock and and a hard place... Their situation is difficult... How to recognize or endorse Medjugorje without the apparitions...


A problem indeed. The Archbishop's words hint at the problem the Church is heading for:
"But if it [a diocesan pilgrimage] is organised pilgrimages to go there for the apparitions, we cannot, there is no authorisation to do it… Because the problem of the visionaries is not yet solved."

There's that telling word again - 'problem'. The visionaries are 'problems', and by extension so are their apparitions and any messages that come from them.

Now I may extend my Christian charity to the learned archbishop and give him the benefit of the doubt that he was simply inarticulate in his choice of words, where he could have employed "the issue" or "the matter" in place of "problem". But I cannot shake the feeling that the use of this word is deliberate and comes straight from the top and accurately defines the opinion of the pope who has made his sentiments very clear in his disparaging 'telegraphic office' comments.

Think of it - if I had never been to Medjugorje before (as millions are), and I was going to sign up for a pilgrimage to that place that my diocese was now offering, I would go online to read all about this place I was to visit to get the historical background about it. I would be reading all about the visionaries, apparitions for many years, messages, secrets, chastisements, etc. And my research would also open to me the whole world of controversy about it that all of us know so well, including the pope's unfortunate remarks.

And I would be confused.

And during my trip, I can imaging a surreal scene of prayerfully climbing Podbro with my group, and upon reaching the top where the statue is, whispering to our priestly spiritual guide "Isn't this the spot where Our Lady first appeared to the visionaries and gave them messages?", and having him hush me with the admonition "Shhh! We don't talk about those things!"


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:11 pm 
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I understand the point you are making, Prodigals. Vicka would probably respond in her usual way: “nema problema!” :)

30 months ago the CDF report on the Commission report recommended that pilgrims should be prohibited from having contact with the visionaries and participating in the apparitions, so as to avoid the danger of any fanaticism or exaltation of the seers

Indeed there may be a problem with the seers, but perhaps not all of them. If one of the seers is or was misleading the people, it would not prove Our Lady did not appear at Medjugorje. If five are considered to be misleading the people, it still would not prove Our Lady did not appear at the outset, but on the balance of probability it would seem unlikely.

And this is why the Commission has recommended as valid the first week of apparitions or the occasions when Our Lady appeared to ALL six visionaries at once, and not as individuals. The sheer number of apparitions to individuals would be impossible to analyse and approve or disapprove.

The other reason why we are being told that ‘official’ pilgrimages can’t be organised to visit the visionaries and apparitions is because many tour companies promote and advertise their pilgrimages using the visionaries, their images, offering accommodation at their houses, and including the apparitions and meetings with the visionaries on their itineraries. And in this way the visionaries and the apparitions become the focus, hence the phrase used by the CDF “exaltation of the seers”. In today’s age, the cult of celebrity we see throughout the world and its dangers.

I’m not saying that’s the fault or desire of the seers, but people being people that want to be close to the celebrity, to experience and touch their ‘specialness’. Look at the way pilgrims react to Vicka and the way some try to grab a piece of her and hold on to her, to the extent that she has been physically harmed.

The crowds used to close in on Jesus and to preach to them he had to resort to stepping into a boat offshore. Now Vicka isn’t Christ or the Virgin Mary, neither are the other visionaries. Another example is to see how Mirjana is shielded from pilgrims when she climbs and descends from the Blue Cross. This isn’t her fault but it’s the way of the people. Mary is no longer the focus, rather less, Jesus, but the visionary is.

Now if there are problems with one or more of the visionaries, that claims of apparitions and messages are exaggerated, for whatever reason, what can we expect the Church to do? Denounce them and so pose a problem for them and their family? Or should the Church seek another solution that would not jeopardise the validity of the earlier apparitions?

The Pope has studied the Commission report. He said it is a good report. He also has the report on the commission report prepared by the CDF. But he has publicly expressed his personal doubt about the ongoing apparitions. What was in those reports that makes him doubt, information that none of us will ever have access to? He now has the task of protecting the tree that produces so much good fruit, protecting the visionaries, their reputations and their families from any adverse criticism or cult following, and protecting the faithful from any possibility of being misled, as well as exercising the wisdom of Holy Mother Church.

As for controversy about Medjugorje, what’s new? The Catholic Church has always lived and experienced controversy. That’s because the devil is divisive and the Church or Medjugorje is not immune from his works. Our Lady constantly warns about this. Even visionaries and their families struggle on this front. Medjugorje is not perfect.

And when we are confused, know what lies behind this, and stay close to the Lord and his Blessed Mother, remembering that all answers are found in prayer.

Quote:
Problems, problems, problems, they're all on account of my lovin' you like I do.


• That’s my lot until after the New Year! Taking a break from the forum to get myself sorted for Christmas and spending time with family visiting me over the festive period.

Wishing all on the forum a peaceful and blessed Christmas! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Bluecross theorizes that there maybe something negative in the report about the visionaries and maybe that is why Pope Francis will not approve. However, Pope Francis was chiding the Virgin, not the visionaries. He called Our Lady a postmistress. He also doubted that She would show up in various locations to the visionaries. He has already formed an opinion of the Virgin Mary and how She interacts with people on earth and his opinion does not match the Virgin of Medjugorje. I don't view Pope Francis's comments as concerning the visionaries and their behavior, I view it as a rejection of the Virgin Mary in this apparition set.
Also Mirjana's apparitions have been criticized here on this forum that she is drawing attention to herself. People that view the video of the apparition do so for a number of reasons. They may want to 'judge' in their own mind if it seems fake. They may want to imagine the conversation between the visionary and Our Lady. That is why I view the videos. I think it is very genuine how Mirjana is almost overcome with joy in the first seconds of when Our Lady appears to her. I could imagine those same emotions if I would see my earthly mother who has been deceased for 20 years. I couldn't even begin to imagine seeing the Virgin Mary. Our Lady, as She has made Herself known in Medjugorje, has been greatly maligned by various groups of people, my prayer is that those who love the Blessed Mother would come together as friends and not as Garbandalists, Fatimists and that graces will soon pour out to make this prayer a reality.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:04 am 
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I very much agree with most of what maryannlucy writes here, although I don't think that the Pope was chiding the Virgin when he made his comments. I think Francis has been affected by the many false claims of apparitions in South America and I hope he has started to recognize he has been mistaken regarding the Medjugorje events.

I do agree that there is no evidence that he, or, for that matter, the commission, had any serious concerns about any of the visionaries. Mirjana is, perhaps, the most 'visible' visionary these days but I find her behaviour impeccable. Her determination to have her monthly apparition in public, despite very clear suffering from her back problems, is praiseworthy. She was given a special responsibility for non-believers or, as Our Lady describes them as those who have yet to know or experience the love of God. I believe Mirjana views those public apparitions as part of her work for the Virgin.

I also agree that there should be no separation of any kind between believers in Fatima, Garabandal or Medjugorje.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:29 am 
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johntt wrote:
I don't think that the Pope was chiding the Virgin when he made his comments.

To chide: to reprimand, to lecture, to rebuke . . .

If he was not "chiding" Her as mal says, then what exactly was the pontiff doing when he made his disparaging remarks about Our Lady? Regardless whether he has been affected by apparition claims in his native South America, what do you think his objective was by painting Her as a "postmistress" of some telegraphic office? Was that supposed to be some sort of South American brand of humor whose brilliance was lost on the rest of us?

You say that you "hope he has started to recognize he has been mistaken regarding the Medjugorje events." If that were true, would not the first indication we would see from him is some sort of retraction of his uncharitable comment?

Or does his comment document for us the depth of his conviction that after the first few apparitions, the rest of Medjugorje for the past 35 years is a sham?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:37 am 
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Prodigals wrote:
If he was not "chiding" Her as mal says, then what exactly was the pontiff doing when he made his disparaging remarks about Our Lady? .....
You say that you "hope he has started to recognize he has been mistaken regarding the Medjugorje events." If that were true, would not the first indication we would see from him is some sort of retraction of his uncharitable comment?

I do not view what Pope Francis said about Medjugorje in his interview on the plane as, in any way, uncharitable. Nor was he speaking negatively of Our Lady, his love for Her is clear in his homilies and behaviour during the liturgy. I think it is worth copying again, here, his actual words regarding Medjugorje during his flight in May from Fatima:

    Quote:
    Medjugorje, all the apparitions, or the presumed apparitions, belong to the private sphere, they aren’t part of the public, ordinary magisterium of the Church. Medjugorje. Medjugorje. A commission was formed, headed by Cardinal Ruini. Benedict XVI made it. I, at the end of 2013 the beginning of 2014, I received the result from Cardinal Ruini. It was commission good theologians, bishops, cardinals, but good. Very good. And the commission. The Ruini report was very, very good. Then there were some doubts in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and the Congregation judged it opportune to send each one of the members of this Feria quarta all the documentation, even those that seemed to be against the Ruini report. I received a notification - I remember it was a Saturday evening, late evening… and it didn’t seem right. It was like putting up for auction - excuse me the word - the Ruini report which was very well done. And Sunday morning the prefect received a letter from me that said that instead of sending them to the Feria Quarta, they they would send the opinions to me personally. 

    These opinions were studied and all of them underscore the density of the Ruini report. Principally, three things must be distinguished: the first apparitions, that they were kids. The report more or less says that it must continue being studied. The apparitions, the presumed current apparitions: the report has its doubts. I personally am more nasty, I prefer the Madonna as Mother, our Mother, and not a woman who’s the head of a telegraphic office, who everyday sends a message at such hour. This is not the Mother of Jesus. And these presumed apparitions don’t have a lot of value. This I say as a personal opinion. But, it’s clear. Who thinks that the Madonna says, ‘come tomorrow at this time, and at such time I will say a message to that seer?’ No. The two apparitions are distinguished. The third, the core of the Ruini report, the spiritual fact, the pastoral fact. People go there and convert. People who encounter God, change their lives…but this…there is no magic wand there. And this spiritual and pastoral fact can’t be ignored. Now, to see things with all this information, with the answers that the theologians sent me, this good, good bishop was appointed because he has experience, to see the pastoral part, how it’s going. And at the end he’ll say some words.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:06 pm 
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If i may interject here,
It's my understanding that when the pope made that 'post mistress' reference he was referring to the actual messages themselves,
not the visionaries, not Our Lady. It's the 'onslaught' of messages that he had an issue with.
I think that's why this commission called them a problem. They'd have to interpret them and explain and
get to grips with them too.

Its too extra-ordinary to get a handle on, for a number of reasons:
1. Each message could need to be further examined theologically & explained more & in an in depth way to those of us more
easily confused by such messages.
Like there's so many questions i'd love to ask in relation to so many messages I've read, to dispel some confusion maybe even
just one word could give me. It's probably wrong to want such clarity and definite answers; but that's kind of the way it goes.
Otherwise, an understanding may sometimes just not be reached.

2. The carnival atmosphere that may arise & then all the unearthly wailing's that can sometimes be found emerging from the crowd.
I'm sorry but that's a problem for the faint of heart and those who are very new to a spiritual reality.
This seems to be a common enough occurrence too. Speaking as someone who's never been there; i'll admit i'd be more than a tad
freaked out by that kind of thing. (Who knows, maybe it would be myself doing the wailing? :P)
Honestly, i would not be OK after witnessing that kind of thing. I'd be fretting, were they OK? Why weren't they healed?
And why does this happen at just these apparitions when Our Lady appears and not at mass, which is supposed to be the holiest, most solemn event this planet will ever experience?
Our Lady is thought to be present at every mass as well so?

3. I'd have a problem with the way some pilgrimages are touted also for those reasons described above.
That in itself creates divisions between less advantaged people & since the visionaries have all the action, people can feel
left out and excluded also. Even the way the visionaries have this special insight can be a bit 'far out' there and hard to
relate to for some people. They could get a defeatist attitude like...well if God wants me to have faith, why won't he prove himself and appear or 'do something' concrete for proof. They will only believe IF they see. Less inclined to pray or put the work in, faith could be on shaky ground if always wanting to experience spiritual fireworks.

When Bluecross, described above how Our Lady said she'd always be with us; i think this is true in our every day life to a certain extent, but i think what happens is that Our Lady can sometimes only be 'behind' us, in relation to us in our lives,
because we ourselves don't ''turn around' & have Our Lady in front of us. We turn our backs without knowing or even realising it.
When one would make a pilgrimage to Medjugorje; people are making efforts to turn around & reverse this; Have Our Lady in front of us. I think that's where all the graces lies because people do find and are rewarded.

Wishing you and your loved ones a very Merry Christmas Bluecross! We appreciate you!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:43 am 
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Just to respond to #2 of the points you made, Maryh. Prior to an apparition, I think the crowd gathers to pray and sing. There is probably a feeling of anticipation throughout the pilgrims and a lot of joy. Sister Emmanuel addressed the phenomena of wailing in her Sept. 2017 newsletter. She said:
2. Strange events! During this apparition, a rather common phenomenon occurred once again. But on this day, it was on a scale I had never seen before. People in large numbers began to howl blasphemies and yell like animals as soon as the Blessed Mother appeared. This went on for some time, and then everything gradually calmed down. When people who are tormented by demons are in the presence of Our Lady these demons sometimes manifest their anger in this way.
A priest who was there with us told me at the end of the apparition that he had perceived the coming of the Mother of God within his soul, and the luminous cloud on which she stands. This cloud slowly moved downward, pushing the demons down into the abyss, which unleashed their revolt and even prompted them to fight against each other. This priest belongs to a team that works with an exorcist every week, and he has the gift of seeing in spirit what is happening in the invisible realm. These realities are not new; the Gospel reveals a number of them to us. However in our days, with the growing number of harmful practices and the serious sins that are being committed, many people are opening their doors to Satan and his angels without being aware of it. Let us therefore pray a great deal to the Mother of God, because she was chosen by God to crush the head of the serpent. She is the best exorcist after Jesus! The Rosary prayer is a very powerful weapon against the forces of evil.
An exorcist from the diocese of Milano, Don Ambrogio Villa, reported what Satan said during a recent exorcism. Summoned to answer the questions which the priest asked him, Satan said: “For us (demons), Medjugorje is our hell on earth!” (See PS 1). No surprise there! Given the intensity of prayers surrounding the daily visits of Our Lady, given the evenings of adoration with people in their thousands, given the many sincere confessions, conversions and reconciliations, it isn’t surprising that the enemy of humankind feels awful there. But we must keep watch! He is doing everything he can to oppose the plan of the Mother of God and to destroy it. This is why our Heavenly Mother is counting on us today more than ever. She asked us again this month at the Blue Cross with Ivan, to pray for the plans she has for Medjugorje and for her projects. “I need your prayers to help the world,” she said at the very beginning of the apparitions. Let’s not let her down, because a lot of what will happen depends on our prayers and our fasting! It actually depends on our good will to live her messages or to ignore them.

PS1. His testimony can be found at
https://youtu.be/lG8LICKlB_c but it is entirely in Italian with no translations
+++++++

May Christmas blessings be yours.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:43 pm 
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maryannlucy wrote:
But on this day, it was on a scale I had never seen before. People in large numbers began to howl blasphemies and yell like animals as soon as the Blessed Mother appeared. This went on for some time, and then everything gradually calmed down. When people who are tormented by demons are in the presence of Our Lady these demons sometimes manifest their anger in this way.


This sounds wild Maryannlucy!
Are children in attendance also? Are these people Christians or people of faith?
I just find it baffling how people who go on pilgrimage can end up in that kind of state. I just would have guessed that
people who had opened doors to Satan would avoid the place entirely. Its kind of horrifying!

I also wonder about people who have done some pretty evil things still being able to stand in God's presence at mass, in a church, even administering
holy communion and receiving it. Some even swanning around like they have God in their pockets.
I wonder Why don't they have any manifestations? I know none of us is perfect; or worthy for God to enter under our roofs but i suppose i'm thinking about those who really masquerade as holy folk when they're really not. The one's who 'use' God for their own
evil agendas. I suppose i'll never know the answer.

Perhaps it is the intensity of prayers that is occurring in Medjugorje;
It certainly seems to be very 'charismatic' in style there anyway.

Wishing a very happy & bright Christmas to you too Maryannlucy!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Wondering if the tour groups are in need of anyone to go along with them to bring pilgrims to Medjugorje. How does one become a tour guide ? I would like to be able to take pilgrims over. If anyone has information on this, please let me know.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Angelica, your best bet would be to contact the pilgrimage companies that take people to Medjugorje.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Dear Angelica the tour group 206TOUR allows one to organize a group. Call them at 1-800-206TOUR

Love in Christ,
MRSTOL

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