Chat with other believers about Medjugorje.

Moderators: TimHaley, MedjAdmin, Management

#231920
from page 18
The International Commission, subsequently, decided to proceed to a further vote, regarding the erection of a pontifical sanctuary in Medjugorje, choosing from the following proposals: “a pontifical sanctuary is erected in Medjugorje”; “A pontifical sanctuary is not erected for now, but only later, in Medjugorje”; “A pontifical sanctuary is not erected in Medjugorje at all.” The 14 present and voting (11 Members and 3 Experts) expressed themselves as follows:
• 6 Members and 3 Experts: “a pontifical shrine is erected in Medjugorje”
• 4 Members: “a pontifical sanctuary is not erected for now, but only later, in Medjugorje”
• 1 Member: “a pontifical sanctuary is not erected in Medjugorje at all”.
#231921
Sure, look at the positives in the commission report, but don’t be blind to the cautionary conclusion the Commission came to about the ongoing apparitions and the lies told by one of the visionaries. Neither should we ignore the personal opinion of Pope Francis about the claims of continued apparitions. The final decisions rest with him, not the Commission. The Commission was put together by Pope Benedict in a serving role to investigate and report its findings (and opinions).

When votes were taken, none were unanimous, only a majority, which confirms there was doubt expressed by some of the Commission members.

I’ve said before that five visionaries could be lying and if only one was telling the truth then it would not deny the truth of Our Lady appearing at Medjugorje (but perhaps not ongoing).

I was disappointed to read that Ivan had been accused of lying because this throws doubt on anything he may have said about the apparitions and I refer to two particular claims he has made in the past:- that Our Lady told him that Fr Slavko had been born into Heaven and (2) to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays (the best fast being bread and water).

It’s unfortunate that Ivan has been accused in the report of telling lies. A similar thing happened in the early days of the apparitions concerning one of the secrets and information he had written himself and provided to the authorities. He was caught out then.

I’m all for promoting Medjugorje and its fruits, but not the cult of visionaries.
#231923
It’s unfortunate that Ivan has been accused in the report of telling lies. A similar thing happened in the early days of the apparitions concerning one of the secrets and information he had written himself and provided to the authorities. He was caught out then.
I was presuming myself that the lying
they mention in the report is the lying
from those days that you are bringing
up here.
#231924
So the net effect of the Ruini report is that it adds only more confusion for the lay faithful who want to know if the event is bona-fide or not.

The concerns raised in the report speak to some perceived weakness surrounding the character of some of the visionaries. We might do well to consider that visions are given to those whom God chooses—not automatically to those who are the most holy. Pope Benedict himself wrote: "…union with God by charity is not requisite in order to have the gift of prophecy, and thus it was at times bestowed even upon sinners…" (Heroic Virtue, Vol. III, p. 160) In this, we see that the instrument God chooses can be fallible. As to the human weaknesses of seers, Benedict tells us that we are dealing with humans, not angels. The human qualities of a visionary are filters through which his or her private revelations pass which can possibly change the message or becloud its meaning.

And so, we are left in no better position of clarity. On one hand, there is no denying the prodigious "good fruit" Medjugore has produced. But on the other hand, we are left with Vatican report which has found concerns with a part of the whole event. Is it fish, or is it foul? Can it be both - is that even possible?

After all these years, we are left with the conclusion that the Medjugorje event will either self-authenticate, or collapse under the weight of its core falsity. Given that Mirjana is already a woman of fifty-five years of age, and she has said that a time will come when she will reveal "secrets" to the world, simple human biology tells us that the world does not have long to wait for the definitive, and final, answer.
#231925
I read the whole report. I note that the recommendations of the Commission are being implemented now. The members recommended removing Bishop Peric from having charge over Medjugorje. They considered how to do this. They talked about making a new diocese to include Medjugorje with its own Bishop (not Bishop Peric), but Bishop Peric didn't like that idea. The commission members decided to vote to see how to proceed on this question. The members voted to have the Pope assign someone to oversee Medjugorje so that the pilgrims needs may be met. Pope Francis did just that with the appointment of Archbishop Hoser. The commission recommended that a Sanctuary should be built and I have seen articles stating that Archbishop Hoser is looking at plans and proposed developments and architecture plans for a new Sanctuary in Medjugorje. With respect to the visionaries, they used the Internet to find some information about the visionaries. They took a dim view of making a living by promoting Medjugorje. This was true for Ivan D. They noted that he didn't have employment outside of promoting Medjugorje. They recommend that each visionary find a priest to help them in their spiritual development. The commission members want to be informed of the name of the priest that each visionary chooses. They suggest that each visionary be catechized more carefully by the priest they chose and even suggest yearly retreats for each visionary to participate in. The testimony of the psychologist who was skeptical but then touched the Virgin and experienced a profound conversion had a positive impact on the commission members. I am delighted with their report. What I read in the report is vastly more positive than what I read from other people who are commenting about it.
#231926
Maryannlucy wrote:
They recommend that each visionary find a priest to help them in their spiritual development.
So what has Our Lady been teaching the visionaries these past 39 years, especially the three that are said to still receive daily apparitions? And are the visionaries not given spiritual direction when they go to confession?

Prodigals wrote:
So the net effect of the Ruini report is that it adds only more confusion for the lay faithful who want to know if the event is bona-fide or not.
The confusion arises only for those who choose to or want to believe in the ongoing apparitions.
#231927
Regarding 2.4 Present credibility of the alleged visionaries page 13
In other words, it is fitting to recognize that, for long years, neither the bishops of Mostar-Duvno, nor the community of Franciscan friars of Medjugorje established relations with these persons of sufficient regularity and in-depth discernment of the meaning of the events which they claim and even now claim to experience. This circumstance has probably accented the current relative ‘impenetrability’ of the witnesses: innocent at times and calculated in others, through the protecting effect of repetitive formulas and stereotypes defending their Mariophanic “experience.” This lack of spiritual and human accompaniment is surely one among the causes of certain ambivalences and ambiguities that have been manifested among the protagonists of the phenomenon underway.

Called to express itself by voting “on the developments subsequent to the beginnings that directly concern and involve the alleged visionaries,” the Commission has expressed itself as follows: out of 14 present and voting (10 Members and 4 Experts),
• 8 Members and 4 Experts: nondum decernendum; (can not be determined)
• 2 Members: constat de non supernaturalitate. (not supernatural)

From page 16
2.1 Reasons why this problem arises
The problem arises for two different reasons. The first is represented by the attitude constantly maintained by the Diocesan Bishop Perić, which in fact makes adequate pastoral care of the phenomenon impossible. The second is consequent to the supranational dimensions assumed by the phenomenon itself, which the Ordinary of a single place can hardly provide, albeit in collaboration (so far lacking) with the Ordinaries of the other involved places.
#231928
From page 18
3. ATTITUDES TO BE TAKEN TOWARDS THE ALLEGED VISIONARIES
3.1 Objectives to be achieved
As is clear from the first part of this Report, the alleged visionaries have appeared substantially credible in their witness of the first seven apparitions, and also through the succeeding alleged apparitions, it does not seem possible to deny their subjective good faith, independent of judgment on the reality of the event. This positive evaluation, however, does not extend to Ivan Dragičević, on whose credibility serious and demonstrated reservations have emerged. Also, as regards moral conduct and in particular the question of the quaestus lucri, the position of Ivan Dragičevićis more compromised than that of the other alleged visionaries. On the other hand, the alleged visionaries for a long time no longer form a single group but each of them acts on their own, also with regard to the alleged apparitions and other activities connected with the Medjugorje phenomenon. In the judgment of the International Commission, the attention and pastoral care must, above all, be addressed to them, toward the development and deepening of their spiritual life and their sense of belonging to the Church. They do not in fact appear mature either in their faith or in their ecclesiality, and at certain times not even in their psychological consistency. The fact that none of them have been really followed by a spiritual director in their personal journey can at least explain these lacks in part. It should be recognized that the alleged visionaries, in their public statements, do not intend to take the place of the Church, and they do keep her doctrine in mind, in a sufficiently balanced way. However, there are strong tendencies to draw attention to themselves and their current alleged visions, rather than on the Christocentric and ecclesial substance of Marian spirituality. If, as is desired by this International Commission, the Church will take a more positive attitude towards the Medjugorje phenomenon, committing herself to promoting the fruits of grace, it appears necessary that the centrality of the place of grace of Medjugorje emerge more clearly than the personal events and present experiences of the alleged visionaries, for which the Church cannot and must not be held responsible. The alleged visionaries themselves must be helped to realize this changed situation and to accept it, even in their characteristic behavior.
#231929
from page 19
3.2 Concrete suggestions in order to achieve these objectives First of all, it seems necessary that those who exercise the authority of the Church in Medjugorje become the main reference of the alleged visionaries and, for their part, are welcoming and well disposed towards them: on these bases they can also exercise due firmness towards them. The alleged visionaries must have a spiritual guide to accompany their formation and maturation. Each of them can be asked to choose a priest for this task and to communicate his name, to be approved by the competent authority. They could also be asked to do a spiritual retreat at least once a year. Their doctrinal formation should also be deepened, based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It seems opportune to ask the alleged visionaries to live the alleged apparitions in a manner not as public as presently happens, and not to contradict in their statements the indications that will eventually be given by the CDF. Furthermore, not to accept invitations to conferences or other events without the prior consent of the local Ordinary. These indications apply in a special way to Ivan Dragičević. According to the International Commission, the “secrets” of which the alleged visionaries speak, the “life of Mary” and any similar texts cannot enjoy any ecclesiastical approval. The linguistic formulation of the alleged messages of the Madonna should take place in the presence of the priest in charge of the spiritual accompaniment of the alleged seer. Church authority must keep watch over the economic activities of the alleged visionaries connected with the Medjugorje phenomenon, especially in the case of Ivan Dragičević. The willingness of the alleged visionaries to accept these or similar requests will constitute a concrete verification of their personal acceptance of the Marian message of penance, communion and ecclesial obedience of which they consider themselves to be hearers.
#231930
bluecross wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:58 pm So what has Our Lady been teaching the visionaries these past 39 years, . . .[/b]
Teaching the visionaries ??? The purpose of Our Lady's visitation was never to "teach' six rather average, and imperfect, adolescents, it is to teach us - mankind.

“I have come to tell the world that God exists, He is the fullness of life and, to enjoy that fullness, you must return to God…"

The visionaries are simply human conduits for that message.
#231931
Prodigals wrote:
Teaching the visionaries ??? The purpose of Our Lady's visitation was never to "teach' six rather average, and imperfect, adolescents, it is to teach us - mankind.
Your argument suggests that the messages do not apply to the visionaries. But if they do, then Our Lady IS teaching them.

And as to the visionaries who continue to receive daily apparitions, I’m sure Our Lady doesn’t just come to discuss the weather with her “conduits”. She speaks with them as individuals and as a mother, she teaches them as all mothers teach their children. Mirjana classes herself as an apostle of the Queen of Peace.

Did not Jesus teach his apostles and disciples who followed him for three years?

Be conscious, my beloved, that I am your Mother and I have come on earth to teach you to listen out of love, to pray out of love and not compelled by the fact that you are carrying a cross.

I desire to teach you to pray.

That way I shall be able to teach and lead you on this way which I have begun with you.

Dear children, I want Him to change you, to teach you and to protect you.

I am with you and I wish to teach you to pray with the heart.

I desire to teach you and help you to walk the way of holiness.

I love you and that is why I am with you, in order to teach you and to lead you to a new life of conversion and renunciation.

I rejoice today because the Most High has granted me to be with you and to teach you and to guide you on the path of perfection.

Teach your children, because if you are not an example to them, children depart into godlessness.

I call all priests and religious brothers and sisters to pray the rosary and to teach others to pray.

I am with you to teach you and to bring you closer to the love of God.

I will be with you and will teach you how to put Jesus in the first place. I will teach you to love Him and to belong to Him completely.

My children, I desire to teach you to love also.

With my love I will teach you simplicity of life and richness of mercy and I will lead you to my Son.

I will teach you love…

I desire to teach you real love so that others may see it in you…

I desire to open the heart of each of you and to teach you personal unity with The Father…

I will take your lives into my motherly hands and I will teach them peace and love…

I strive, by my example, to teach you humility, wisdom and love because I need you…

I will teach you to forgive…

I desire to teach you sincerity…

Be faithful to my Son and teach others faithfulness.

I will teach you truth that you may know how to discern.

I desire to teach you complete trust in God the Father.

As a mother I will teach you…

My Son is sending me to you - the mother who is the same for everyone - that I may teach you to love…

How many things I desire to teach you.

He desires to teach you to pray with words and feelings.
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