[maryannlucy]

Marija did mention in her talk that it was the centenary of the Fatima apparitions. She mentioned it in the Vienna talk and also to Father Livio when he interviewed her after the Oct. 25th message. Centenary equals 100 years also known as a century. Now according to the overview of Medjugorje material on the Medjugorje.org website: Mirjana related an apparition she had in 1982, which sheds some light on certain aspects of Church history. She spoke of an apparition in which satan appeared to her, and asked Mirjana to renounce Our Lady and to follow him. By doing so she could be happy in love and in life. He added that following Our Lady would only lead to suffering. Mrjana rejected him, and immediately Our Lady appeared and Satan disappeared. Then Our Lady gave Mirjana the following message:

"Excuse me for this, but you must realize that Satan exists. One day he appeared before the throne of God and asked permission to submit the Church to a period of trial. God gave him permission to try the Church for one century. This century is under the power of the devil; but when the secrets confided to you come to pass, his power will be destroyed. Even now he is beginning to lose his power and has become aggressive. He is destroying marriages, creating divisions among priests and is responsible for obsessions and murder. You must protect yourselves against these things through fasting and prayer, especially community prayer. Carry blessed objects with you. Put them in your house, and restore the use of holy water."

Also Mirjana (with the help of Sean and Miki) wrote her biography with the title 'My Heart will Triumph' and she gave the reason: Mirjana believes that now is the time to share her story with the world through her book, MY HEART WILL TRIUMPH.

As Denis Nolan pointed out, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart may not happen in this calendar year, but all indications seem like it is very close.

[bluecross]

The belief by some that the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart refers to a future moment in time when the whole world will become aware of the love of God is akin to Jews believing that the Messiah has still to come, and failing to recognise or accept that Christ triumphed by his death on the Cross and through his Resurrection.

Similarly, Marija recognises and accepts that the Mother of Jesus, the Mother given to us by her Son from his Cross, is also with us. In her Vienna witness, Marija explained: “Our Lady said to us that she will not leave us alone.” Just as Jesus said to the disciples, “I will not leave you orphans.” Jesus then promised that the Father would send the Paraclete, he who changes the face of the earth, and the Holy Spirit came down on the praying group of Mary and the disciples at Pentecost.

It is the same Spirit in Mary’s heart; the Spirit that is one with the Father and the Son; the same Spirit witnessed at Medjugorje, who changes hearts daily; the same Spirt who prompted Mary to say: “Thy will be done”; the same Spirit who prompted Mary to intercede for the guests at the Cana wedding when Jesus turned water into wine through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus let his glory be seen. Just as he does at Medjugorje and elsewhere in the world.

Mary’s heart can only triumph when the Sacred Heart triumphs – and it does every day his love is accepted and shared. There’s no need to wait for signs of a Messiah who will only arrive according to the letter of the law. He is with us, here and now. “Know that I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.” (Matt 28 : 20)

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Good points Prodigals. Maryannlucy, SaintMark, BC and others... I think everything you all said has truth to this matter... Yes BC, your theology is spot on again and is important to understand... And yes, MaryAnnLucy, I believe we are also close to the time when the Immaculate Heart of Mary will Triumph... IN A SPECIAL WAY! Where the whole world will realize what is happening... not just those who are continuously brought to Mary's Son each day through her powerful intercession for us. This event will be unprecedented... World changing for the good! There will be no going back! This is the hope of our Faith... To finally live in peace... the way God intended it to be, and the New Eve, will help usher in this new age of peace to our world...

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

[bluecross]

This morning’s homily by Pope Francis touches on something I have long believed may colour his thoughts on Medjugorje...

Santa Marta: The Kingdom of God Doesn’t Like ‘Publicity’
It’s Not a ‘Show’ or a ‘Carnival’

NOVEMBER 16, 2017

© L'Osservatore Romano

The Kingdom of God isn’t a “show” or a “carnival,” it doesn’t like publicity and prefers to grow “hidden,” said Pope Francis during the Mass he celebrated at Santa Marta in the Vatican on November 16, 2017.

Commenting on the Gospel of the day (Luke 17:20-25), the Holy Father noted the “doubt” and the “curiosity” that drives men regarding the “Kingdom of God.” This Kingdom, he explained in his homily reported by Vatican Radio, grows “hidden”, “in humility.”

“Who makes this seed grow, who makes it germinate?” he asked. God, the Holy Spirit, who is within us. And the Holy Spirit is spirit of sweetness, spirit of humility; He is spirit of obedience, spirit of simplicity. It’s He who makes the Kingdom of God grow from within, not from pastoral plans, great things…No, it’s the Spirit, secretly…then the moment arrives and the fruit appears.

The Kingdom of God is always a “surprise,” because “it’s a gift given by the Lord,” continued the Pontiff. “The Kingdom of God doesn’t come in a way to attract attention…It’s not a show or…a carnival…The Kingdom of God doesn’t show itself with sufficiency, pride, it doesn’t like publicity: it’s humble, hidden, and grows thus.”

“We are all called to take this path of the Kingdom of God,” he stressed. “It’s a vocation, it’s a grace, it’s a gift, it’s free, it’s not purchased, it’s a grace that God gives us. And all of us, baptized, have the Holy Spirit within us.”

Pope Francis concluded by inviting to an examination of conscience: “How is my relationship with the Holy Spirit?…Do I believe in Him; do I really believe that the Kingdom of God is in our midst, that it’s hidden, or do I prefer a show?”

The Pontiff wished for Christians the grace to have germinate “in us and in the Church, forcefully, the seed of the Kingdom of God so that it becomes big, so that it gives shelter to numerous persons and bears fruits of holiness.”

[johntt]

Mary’s heart can only triumph when the Sacred Heart triumphs – and it does every day his love is accepted and shared. There’s no need to wait for signs of a Messiah who will only arrive according to the letter of the law. He is with us, here and now. “Know that I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.” (Matt 28 : 20)

Pope Benedict XVI concluded a homily in 2010 by saying, "May the seven years which separate us from the centenary of the apparitions hasten the fulfillment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity."

I wonder how BC foresees the fulfillment of that which Benedict spoke? Will it be in our lifetime or only at the end of the world?

[bluecross]

John... may I respond to your question by referring you to Stephen Walford’s article and references to Benedict XIV’s quote and explanation published at Vatican Insider on May 14, 2017

As you probably know, Stephen is a contributor to this forum:

Concerning the prophecy of the “Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary”, Pope Benedict XVI in his book interview Light of the World clarified its meaning, while at the same time dismissing millenarian tendencies which have swayed many apparition devotees into the erroneous belief of an imminent, final glorious intervention of God leading to a prolonged era of peace. Concerning praying for the triumph of the Immaculate Heart, Pope Benedict said: “I said the ‘triumph’ will draw closer. This is equivalent in meaning to our praying for the coming of God’s Kingdom. This statement was not intended—I may be too rationalistic for that—to express any expectation on my part that there is going to be a huge turnaround and that history will suddenly take a totally different course.”

http://www.lastampa.it/2017/05/14/vatic ... agina.html

[thebpman]

Is there anybody on the forum who is able to show her the way what she said was written and confirm what she meant. Or even is there someone who is fluent in Croatian that can watch the video and confirm where exactly the emphasis on her wording is. I think it's very important as does everyone else. It is most likely that Marija was not talking about the big Triumph of the Immaculate Heart, but I would really like that confirmed.

[johntt]

John... may I respond to your question by referring you to Stephen Walford’s article and references to Benedict XIV’s quote and explanation published at Vatican Insider on May 14, 2017

Ah yes, BC, but I was asking for your opinion and not Mr Walford's.

But I assume you share what he wrote in that paragraph. I don't disagree with it but it does not, I feel, enlighten us very much.

The topic really being raised here is, does the triumph of the immaculate heart refer to some event, or series of events, in our generation that will change the world as we know it.

You wrote above, "The belief by some that the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart refers to a future moment in time when the whole world will become aware of the love of God is akin to Jews believing that the Messiah has still to come, and failing to recognise or accept that Christ triumphed by his death on the Cross and through his Resurrection."

The problem with that quote is that it bypasses the fact that the Jews, before Jesus was born, were looking to 'a future moment in time' when the world would change when the Messiah came. Their expectation was not misplaced although they misunderstood the nature of the impact the coming of the Messiah would have on their lives.

Similarly, I remain of the view that we are on the threshold of a similarly epoch changing event. The impact on the world of that event is unknown but I do not doubt its expectation.

[bluecross]

It’s not Mr Walford’s opinion but Pope Benedict XVI explaining his comment you quoted. So it is Benedict’s clear view of the meaning of the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.

I’m glad that you don’t disagree with Benedict’s viewpoint.

As for misunderstanding, Fr Jozo Zovko once said:

Man can never be sure or objective, because his thinking, his opinion, never leaves him. If one doesn’t allow oneself to be convinced, if one clings to one’s naturally limited judgement, events will continue to occur without us. This is what happened at Medjugorje. Whether one is convinced or skeptical, for or against, the years pass by at Medjugorje; the signs remain, the fruits remain. And Our Lady’s invitation to peace is still valid.

The Jews believe the Messiah is still to come... that is the judgement they hold onto, refusing to be convinced that Jesus is the Messiah.

Then there are those who sincerely believed that the end of the word was going to happen last week or last year, or at the turn of the century, and have been proven to be wrong.

Restless hearts... seeking God yet wanting him prove himself with signs and wonders according to their own demands and expectations.

Thou shalt know him when he comes
Not by any din of drums
Nor by the vantage of his airs
Nor by anything he wears
Neither by his crown
Nor his gown
For his presence known shall be
by the holy harmony
that his coming makes in thee.

[johntt]

I take it from this response, BC, that you are not anticipating, as I am, an epoch changing event in our generation.

I wonder if you are also not anticipating the specific Garabandal prophecies of the Warning and the Miracle?

I fully understand if you prefer not to comment on those apparitions.

[bluecross]

John, I know nothing about Garabandal.

As for epoch-changing events, I see them happening every day in people’s lives and in all sorts of ways.

The birth of a child is my favourite.

[Prodigals]

Thou shalt know him when he comes

The lovely ancient anonymous text you have used certainly reinforces Benedict's sentiment of not expecting one big intervention that would change the course of mankind's history literally overnight.

Even God's last great intervention two thousand years ago did not do that, either by the birth of the Saving Child or His crucifixion. The patterns of daily life went on seemingly unchanged even after the tomb was found to be mysteriously empty.

However, His life, death, and resurrection had an effect of incalculable largely unseen proportions on the trajectory of man's future - a change that was largely imperceptible to those of His day. Such is the entire story of salvation in that a snail's pace seems rapid by comparison.

So where does Mary's 'Triumph of the Heart' fit into this narrative? Her triumph is tied to the details of the Medjugorje apparitions and messages. Our human curiosity struggles to pin down the exact road map for the future. We play the numbers game, trying to calculate the dates of the prophesied events by tying our guesses to things like centenaries of other apparitions, the age of Christ, etc. We even look at the two thousandth anniversary of the Crucifixion, which puts the spotlight on the years 2027 or 2028.

We try to pin down exactly when Mary's Triumph will take place. Some see epoch changing events happening literally overnight for mankind as a sure sign of Her victory, and others disagree suggesting it is already taking place in the slow inexorable fashion of the rest of salvation history.

I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Maybe there is some truth in both.

Maybe Mary's Triumph is not a singular event, but is a process - a process comprised of many individual events. Mary's Triumph is an ongoing process some of whose constituent parts can be big events such as those hinted at in the Medjugorje secrets, as well as small events happening now on the solitary heart level.

Mary is rebuilding the walls of the new Jerusalem, brick by brick. In this construction, sometimes you lay down smaller bricks, and sometimes you place larger elements into that wall. Mary's building process is a process of both small and large stones. Small stones each time another wayward heart is converted and comes home to God, and the larger headline-grabbing stones promised in the secrets. Both are needed for successful completion of the project.

In this wonderfully paradoxical way, her Triumph is both happening now, and will happen in the future. Her Triumph beautifully transcends the human time that we try to limit it to, which is that naturally limited judgment that Fr. Jozo was referring to.

And that makes Her Triumph even more glorious that we even imagined it.

[bluecross]

Mary is rebuilding the walls of the new Jerusalem, brick by brick.

"The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened." (Matthew 13 : 33)

And so we get back to the question Pope Francis asked and gave the answer to in his homily yesterday... “Who makes this seed grow, who makes it germinate? God, the Holy Spirit, who is within us.”

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Such a well thought out and beautifully written response Prodigals... And your point about The Pope's homily BC all make sense...

Yes, as you all have said, Mary's Immaculate Heart Triumphs each moment that we give honor and praise to her Son... But as thebpman and Johntt says, Mary's Triumphs are not limited to just every moment occasions.. Just as in the past with the end of the Cold War, there will be in the future, great momentous times where Mary's Immaculate Heart will Triumph in dramatic fashion...

All of these events will be fueled by the Holy Spirit, the fire of Divine Mercy and love, along with our prayers so frequently requested by our Blessed Mother...

[johntt]

Let me re-phrase what I believe lies ahead. We are coming to the end of an epoch and will move into a new epoch. Medjugorje is part of God's plan which began with the Fatima apparitions and which is taking us into the new epoch .

I agree with what Pope Francis says in the homily quoted by BC but as Francis knows full well, God is a God of surprises. While Francis' words, "The Kingdom of God isn’t a “show” or a “carnival,” it doesn’t like publicity and prefers to grow “hidden” are well said, we must not forget that God gave us the Fatima Miracle of the Sun 100 years ago!

[bluecross]

Maybe Francis is referring to the man-made shows and carnivals, the self publicists, not God’s glory.

Sure, God created the sun, a miracle in itself, and one that even pagans worship.

But I don’t doubt that nature can draw people to God... the Magi (non Christians) are a good example of this, led by a star to seek Jesus and pay homage to him.

MP also gives witness to this with spectacular photos of his surroundings.

The Kingdom of God is always a “surprise,” because “it’s a gift given by the Lord,” (Pope Francis)

He let his glory be seen, and his disciples believed in him. (John 2 : 11)

At daily Masses throughout the world we proclaim “heaven and earth are FULL of your glory”. God’s triumph can also be witnessed daily (but not always recognised) in his creation.

[ActionReq]

Maybe the kingdom of God is like
politics. We all vote, and hope
our favorite wins. We are leftist
or rightist, or centrist. But our
error is that we think the solution
is in the establishment of our
favorite political party, and it isn't.
We think in goals and endpoints,
but in the heavens it is not that way.
Fact is that left is ok, however
when it wins overwhelmingly,
then the country will go south.
Right is ok, however when right
wings overwhelmingly, the county
will go haywire.
Therefore you, do not search for
what is a good or bad endpoint. No
think about what is good for your
country. Left nor right nor center
will actually help anybody.
So if your country is too left, then
you vote right, and when it is too
right, you vote left.
So it is with God and our society.
Basically there are two extremes.
Cosmological society, against
anthropological society.
Cosmological is called a society
where everything is enclosed in
traditions, and anti-traditionalists
are excluded or so to say throats
are being slit. Anthropological
society is where gain and logic
lead all decisions and they are
bound to destroy their environment
because it is logic that for example
reduce CO2 emissions is bad for
the economy.
A society, when left alone will
always decay into one extreme
or the other, and fail.
Then there is the soteriological
society. That is the society where
God at times intervenes and
prevents a society to drop into
one or the other extreme. Read
Medjugorje.
through His intervention, He pushes
the society away from the extremes
back to a state that still is a frail
equilibrium, but away from the
extremes that destroy mankind.
In conclusion: The triumph of the
immaculate heart of Mary is not
an endpoint, it is a momentum
that is reached, where the
imminent destruction of mankind
is pushed back to a much later
moment in time.
Is Medjugorje alone enough?
So I do doubt that the praying and
fasting in itself is leading to a simple
hardly noticeable transition of
momentum that will save the society.
I hope, believe and fear that we pray
and fast to cause some kind of
"Shock" , prepared by God.
A shock that is necessary to again
make come true the following:

And He hath turned back the heart
of fathers to sons, And the heart of
sons to their fathers, Before I come
and have utterly smitten the land!

So I do believe something is coming.
Not know when though.

[bluecross]

So I do believe something is coming.
Not know when though.

Death, for sure...

[johntt]

Denis Nolan of MaryTV has now published a more accurate translation of what Marija was saying in her testimony in St Stephen's Cathedral last month.

It is: “I believe that with this year, as She said, begins the Triumph of her Immaculate Heart.”


http://marytv.tv/?p=2693

[bluecross]

It is: “I believe that with this year, as She said, begins the Triumph of her Immaculate Heart.”

Even more confusing... so the Triumph is a process starting this year?

Methinks, the original statement/translation that was put out has caused some disquiet. This updated version will continue to do so as well. It’s not the explanation or understanding people were hoping for, just an altered opinion.

[johntt]

I'm not entirely sure what BC's concerns are regarding this matter. I thought it might be helpful to include the context of Marija's words that led to some misunderstanding. I will highlight those words within a quote from her testimony. I think it is important to recognize that Marija is speaking in the context of the Fatima centenary. She is asking us to view the time ahead as the beginning of the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.

Today, this year, we are celebrating the 100 years of Our Lady's apparitions in Fatima. That is another celebration! Only once did Our Lady speak about another apparition other than Medjugorje and what Our Lady said is that whatever She has started in Fatima, She will finish in Medjugorje. What did Our Lady say in Fatima? Our Lady said, 'Pray for all those who do not pray. Pray for all those that are not adoring God.' In Medjugorje give witness for all those that are not able to give witness. Our Lady is inviting us to spend as much time as we can before the Blessed Sacrament. To be there, in front of the Blessed Sacrament is a blessing for our lives. Because when someone loves, they speak about love. When you love God, you speak about God. When you love someone, you tell others about them and so on... If you are really in love with God, then you will become His witnesses. This is what the Saints did. They bore witness, gave witness and testimony. Two days ago (October 22nd) we celebrated the feast day of Saint John Paul II. The way St. John Paul II spoke of Our Lady showed how much love that he had for Our Lady. So many times Pope John Paul II sent us visionaries rosary beads that we used. And then Benedict was the Holy Father, Pope Benedict was for us all good and theological. He taught us sin is sin and wholeness is wholeness. He taught us to take the true path as Our Lady has said, 'Live the Commandments of God. Love your neighbor, don't take what doesn't belong to you, and so on.' As we can see, there are not so many people that convert. But then I say, 'No, it's not true because it is easier to hear a tree that falls than a tree that grows.' The tree that grows with its branches so high give witness to others. We should witness with our lives. Our Lady said, 'It doesn't matter who you are or what skin color you have, you are invited to give witness of your faith.'

He (Cardinal Ernesto Simoni) comes from Albania and he told us about Muslims. He said to the Muslims, 'You pray in your way and I will pray for you. I am blessing you and I will pray for you.' Then they came back and said that they had received grace. Work for the unity, for peace because peace is the biggest treasure for mankind and we know that satan all the time is trying to start a war here or there. But the most beautiful thing is when a man kneels down with a rosary in his hands because the rosary beads are a stronger weapon than a nuclear bomb. We know that, and we believe that, and that is why we pray!

As Our Lady said, 'God has allowed me to be among you' and we would like to thank Our Lady for Her presence in Medjugorje. She is still with us. We would like to say thank you to Our Lady for being with us, and to thank Her for not leaving us. She has allowed us to be close to Her and that She allowed us to fall in love with Her and that She brought us to Her Son because She has the most love for Her Son. She always speaks about Her Son. She brings us Jesus. She is carrying Him and that is what we will do as well (they were going to have the Eucharist at Mass after the recitation of the rosary). When we all love the Son; at that point the world changes and then peace will reign. I believe that with this year, as She said, begins the Triumph of her Immaculate Heart. Our Lady said to us that She will not leave us alone. She is giving us the messages. During the apparition, Our Lady prays. Our Lady prayed in Her mother language -- in Her own Aramaic language and I didn't understand anything. And as we couldn't understand, She said, 'Do not forget that I am your Mother and that I love you.' We shouldn't forget that She is the Mother and that She loves us. And let us pray that those who are away from God and lost in sin that She will bring us all to Her Son. And let it be so. Amen.

The complete testimony is at: http://marytv.tv/?page_id=2620

[bluecross]

Thanks, John, for your explanation, however...

I'm not entirely sure what BC's concerns are regarding this matter.

I was concerned at the beginning by what was purported to be the words of Marija via the tranmission of her talk via MaryTV.

I was concerned by the reaction her statement caused among Medjugorje followers.

...And I believe that this year, the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph.

I was concerned that her words would be used against her and Medjugorje by opponents of the phenomenon

I am still concerned at the attempt to provide a fresh translation that implies another meaning (even if only as an attempt to clarify).

...I believe that with this year, as She said, begins the Triumph of her Immaculate Heart.

And now I am concerned, or should I say, still puzzled at what is meant by “begins the Triumph”. Is it referring to the time the Fatima apparitions began?

If so, then has Our Lady’s heart never triumphed before that, or since?

or, repeating from my previous post: Is the Triumph a process starting this year?

I suppose I can just view her words as Marija’s personal belief and opinion, but not supported by the Church.

[maryannlucy]

The triumph of the Immaculate Heart is simply the victory of the Virgin Mary over satan. It happens every day on a soul by soul basis, but it will happen to a more full degree during the time of the secrets. Our Lady would not have embarked on this huge project if it didn't culminate in some epoch changing victory for God and His people. As She has stated through the years, we are praying to advance her project and defeat satan. The time of grace is the time allotted to us to bring as many people as possible to Jesus by the many means She suggests (prayer, fasting, Mass, confession, Scripture reading and reconciliation between people and God). satan's power will not continue to grow and grow. No! The Scripture says, 'his time is short.' All the icky things that we have to deal with now and keep our kids away from will not continue for years and decades. satan is a fallen creature and his 'power' is nearly spent. he hasn't been able to ruin the Church. his lies, boasts and temptations are falling on the deaf ears of the faithful. We have chosen Jesus.

[Prodigals]

I have to agree with bc that the Mary TV translation that johntt provided does not clarify. It further confuses the issue by adding the word 'begins' which suggests the commencement of the first or earliest part on some ongoing operation.

OK, so Mary's Triumph 'begins' this year. Since we don't know what the 'beginning' would look like, I can accept that. But it is entirely possible that this start to Her Triumph is something that will be imperceptible to human eyes, and that we will never know that it happened by December 31st of this year. The battle is not waged solely on Earth. Let us remember that this is also a great spiritual battle invisible to our eyes.

Secondly, no clue is given as to how long this "operation of Triumph" will go on before the end goal is achieved.

And thirdly, what specific goal defines when the triumph is achieved? We talk of many wonderful things we are hopeful for the future, the crushing of satan, the conversion of the world back to God, etc. Which of these defines exactly when Our Lady will raise Her arms in victorious triumph? Is it one specific event? Or several?

maryannlucy says the triumph of the Immaculate Heart is simply the victory of the Virgin Mary over satan, and it happens every day on a soul by soul basis. OK, if true then we can say that the Triumph has been already happening in a smaller way since 1981. So why is Marija saying it has yet to begin? Maybe, Marija is thinking big, and saying that the individual conversions that are already taking place are nothing compared to what we will see when Our Lady kicks things into high gear for the grand finale of Her work.

So we are still left with many questions. Triumph already started? Or yet to start? What phase of the Triumph comes next? And when does that start? At what point of the Triumph process do the secrets emerge? What about those chastisements? You wouldn't normally associate the word 'chastisements' with 'triumph', one being negative and one being positive. How do they fit in? And when?

And what of that Permanent Sign - is that the end of the 'Triumph process'? I don't believe so because we are told that even after the Sign appears, there will still be those who don't believe.

"I believe that with this year . . ." Which year, Marija? 2017? 1981? 1917? 1858? Or some year in the near future?

My own opinion is that is not possible to unpack Marija's statement to yield any significant information.

[johntt]

My own opinion is that is not possible to unpack Marija's statement to yield any significant information.

That's a disappointing conclusion, Prodigals!

I think Catholics tend to want everything neatly packaged and easily understood. Understanding God's works is not always (or even often) that easy.

The Triumph of the Immaculate Heart is a topic that can be discussed at length. Maria's testimony is helpful in providing some understanding of the topic but not everyone is going to be on her wavelength!

I believe we can learn a huge amount by listening to the visionaries. They have been listening directly to Our Lady's guidance and advice for such a long time. I do not believe any of them have told us anything which conflicts with Church teaching.