[irish m]

Pope Francis was here for the two days in Ireland I watched it all on Tv for my wife was not well
it was lovely
But now I read that pope francis knew for years that a Cardinal had committed sex abuse
this come from a vatican official
I don't know who to believe any more
I pray to God to Guide me
can anyone put me straight on this
God Bless you all
love Irish M
Ps don't no what to believe anymore

[Prodigals]

can anyone put me straight on this

A priest by the name of Josef Ratzinger, who later would become Pope Benedict, gave us the answer:

“And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. It may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but it will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”

[Maryh]

I think its a case of how evil like to sift us all.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Ephesians 6:1

The news stories of late shows me how Fr. Amorth knew the truth of what was really going on.

The Chief exorcist warned that the devil was in the vatican.

The evil influence of Satan was evident in the highest ranks of the Catholic hierarchy, with "cardinals who do not believe in Jesus and bishops who are linked to the demon," Father Amorth said.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... tican.html


Abuse survivors groups Ending Clergy Abuse says +Vigano’s letter “is infighting between curia factions that are exploiting the abuse crisis and victims of clergy sexual abuse as leverage in the struggle for church power.”

My personal opinion is that evil can be so unbelievably deceptive and sneaky that its hard to fathom or come to grips with it in its entirety.
Thrown in on top is the Christian message to always turn the other cheek, forgive and forget, & see one another as brothers and sisters made in the image and likeness of God, Love keeps no record of wrongs, See, hear and speak no evil...etc.
Its so hard for anyone to admit, believe and come to terms with the fact that someone is behaving not in the image of God, but the very opposite as a malevolent force.
Any one of us can be deceived at any time.
It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes. Psalm 118: 9

I can only get a sense of who i trust the most, based on what they say and have said in the past & if it resonates with me.
Then sometimes it can make up an overall pattern.
I always need to pray for guidance too Irish M & for correct judgement and wisdom.
Its not always easy to discern things.

[johntt]

But now I read that pope francis knew for years that a Cardinal had committed sex abuse
this come from a vatican official
I don't know who to believe any more

It is necessary to focus on Jesus and Mary in these increasingly difficult times and to resist the accusatory voices that try to undermine our faith.

The Holy Father is increasingly attacked on the internet by traditionalist groups but they are mistaken in their views. The new development caused by Archbishop Vigano's accusatory letter is part of a purification process that has to take place to renew the Church.

You can read some comments on the Archbishop's dossier/letter at:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/accounta ... pe-francis

The goodness of Pope Francis is self evident. The devil is having great success in instilling suspicion of him into many Catholics. Those who remain faithful to Jesus' representative on earth will have peace.

[Prodigals]

I don't know who to believe any more

Like Irish M, many Catholics feel deeply betrayed by those whom they long held in the highest regard.

The sins of guilty have sent the Church we love, the Church we serve and the Church that Jesus Christ established into convulsions. For decades, our church leaders have completely mishandled the insidious infiltration of satan into their ranks - and it was the innocent young ones who were sacrificed on this terrible altar of inaction.

And now a battle erupts over whether the pope knew or didn't know. We fail to realize that the fault of this on-going perversity is not only with those who committed the terrible acts and the Church fathers who irresponsibly looked the other way. It is also with all of us - the laity - who also glibly looked the other way and said nothing. We didn’t know about the atrocities that were recently announced in Pennsylvania because we didn’t want to know. We wanted the 2002 sexual abuse scandals that plagued the church to be over and done with. We wanted to sail on into cleaner waters, not to keep searching for old sewage. And so, in our naiveté the black elephant wandered into the room, and we chose to ignore it.

And here in the U.S., there are at least two other states whose Attorney General offices are preparing indictments against Church clergy similar to that released by Pennsylvania. Surely, out of our 50 states, there will be others who do likewise. And when these damning reports are released in the future, the torrent of bad news will be like a dam breaking.

So did Francis know, or didn't he? He gave the worst of all possible answers - "I cannot confirm or deny". Better he would have said nothing at all.

Clearly, our Church heirarchy for the past decades is at fault. But we too stand equally condemned who ignored the elephant in the room for the past decades. We too are soiled by the filth. While we’re demanding penance from the priests and bishops, let’s accept some sackcloth and ashes for ourselves.

We must finally clearly acknowledge that clerical sexual abuse is a global problem that must be addressed at the highest levels of the Catholic Church. The time for moral posturing is over. Good Catholics the world over are tired of hearing those who we charged to lead us say "I'm sorry for what has happened." 'Sorry' fixes nothing.

We the laity - the body of the Church - must demand that the highest level of church authority take strong, decisive and very public measures to reform the Catholic Church - and do so immediately. We can no longer tolerate the silence of shepherds who continue to ignore the cries of their flocks. We now are painfully aware of the wreckage that ensues when this leadership sits on their hands and does nothing at all. They must take decisive action now because the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

The lives of good and decent men like Irish M are depending on it.

[irish m]

Thank you Prodigals you have said what I would have liked to have said
But as I'm not good at putting words togeather like that and not a great speller
Thank you again
God Bless you all
love Irish M
Ps All we can do is trust in God and for those who have done this sinful thing to these people when they were children
God have mercy

[irish m]

sorry as I said I am not a bright spark I am not confused in my faith my Topic is wrong I am confused with the people who lead me in my faith
God Bless you all love Irish M

[Maryh]

It is also with all of us - the laity - who also glibly looked the other way and said nothing. We didn’t know about the atrocities that were recently announced in Pennsylvania because we didn’t want to know. We wanted the 2002 sexual abuse scandals that plagued the church to be over and done with. We wanted to sail on into cleaner waters, not to keep searching for old sewage. And so, in our naiveté the black elephant wandered into the room, and we chose to ignore it.

People do not know about these atrocities because they cannot know unless somebody discloses the abuse that has occurred to them.
Even those closest to them do not know, let alone those farther removed. Evil is SO deceptive.

Steps for CSA prosecution:

1. Victim knows it was abuse
2. Victim can communicate
3. Victim discloses
4. Victim is believed
5. Police notified
6. Sufficient evidence
7. Case accepted
8. Perpetrator doesn't plead to lesser offence
9. Conviction, no appeal

84% don't get to step 3

Victims are specifically sought out and chosen by their predators because they're least likely to ever speak out against them.
They know who they can do it to. Its so satanic.
It seems as though unless the due process in relation to the law has been exercised; together with this elusive 'proof' and 'evidence' which more likely than not is unavailable, no justice is done. Its one person's word against another. How can anyone know what happens behind closed doors or whether or not the person they're speaking to has been subject to this? Its just not possible.

If Jesus threw out the money-changers from the temple in the dramatic fashion he did, what would he do to the great pretenders
who are using his name to destroy and deceive others? Vengeance is HIS.

Well I've certainly being guilty of naivety in the past. When i say at mass 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Hosanna in the highest' I've really meant it.

The problem is; that the level of evil that we're talking about here really beggars belief. How can anyone even suspect somebody is that
'atrocious' and 'sick'? How paranoid would one have to be to second guess what these people are capable of?
I really believe that a healthy mind cannot even conceive of the levels of depravity we're dealing with.

So did Francis know, or didn't he? He gave the worst of all possible answers - "I cannot confirm or deny". Better he would have said nothing at all.

I think when such strong accusations were being levelled his way; the best course of action was to avail of his right to remain silent.
Anything he said, could and would be held against him.
I don't know if coming home in an aeroplane after an exhausting trip would be the time nor the place to become embroiled in this matter.

I appreciated Pope Francis's thoughts about how to approach these 'investigations' in his aeroplane interview and also the message he shared at knock.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... blin-48562
https://www.knockshrine.ie/message-pope ... ck-shrine/

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. Mathew 11:12

Psalm 12:5. i ♥ both of these versions.
"Because the poor are plundered and the needy groan, I will now arise," says the LORD. "I will protect them from those who malign them."
The LORD replies, "I have seen violence done to the helpless, and I have heard the groans of the poor. Now I will rise up to rescue them, as they have longed for me to do."

Sacred heart of Jesus i place ALL my trust in you.

[Merlorrich]

Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church. That doesn't mean that they will not come very close.

Matthew 16:17-19 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Seems to me like an attack on Papa Francesco.

"St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle! Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into Hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who roam about the world seeking the ruin of souls."

Ever wondered how of the 100 years can be left ? ref: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... fm?id=1217

[bluecross]

In these testing and divisive times for the Church it is perhaps worth recalling part of a Medjugorje message given by the seer Mirjana on September 2, 2013:

For the sake of Jesus, for the sake of my Son, love those whom He has called and long for the blessing only from the hands which He has consecrated. Do not permit evil to come to reign. Anew I repeat – only along side your shepherds will my heart triumph. Do not permit evil to separate you from your shepherds.

So we must be careful our faith is not based on the teaching and dictates of the media, Catholic or not... All is agenda and profit driven. Allow the Lord to separate the sheep from the goats. That way, we will not be judged according to how we judge our priests. Hope and pray that we are all blessed with a priest to administer the Sacrament of the Last Rites at the hour of our death, and not regret that we failed to pray for our priests, whoever or whatever they are.

[Maryh]

But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
John 10:2

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
John 10:9

“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber.


Shepherds must enter through the door who is Jesus. I think that only by spending time in prayer can we recognise the voice of Jesus calling us through his true shepherds.
We as human beings are totally out of our league when it comes to evil. Its worse than anything we can even imagine.

I definitely could do with St. Michael as my bodyguard.

A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37: 10

[johntt]

In these testing and divisive times for the Church it is perhaps worth recalling part of a Medjugorje message given by the seer Mirjana on September 2, 2013:

For the sake of Jesus, for the sake of my Son, love those whom He has called and long for the blessing only from the hands which He has consecrated. Do not permit evil to come to reign. Anew I repeat – only along side your shepherds will my heart triumph. Do not permit evil to separate you from your shepherds.

Thank you, BC, for this important quote.

[irish m]

johntt if you are saying about Bluecross and the quote of our ladys
sure it wasn't long ago pope Francis said she wasn't a postwomen
and only the first 7 appartions is that they would take
so do we believe in just the 7 the rest are not right
so if we go with him on that the rest are not quotes
so how confusing is it with the one's who leads us at times
GOD BLESS YOU All
love Irish M
Ps hope I have put this the right way what I am trying to say as johntt you put me straight on the
Pope before so don't know if have put this the right road God Bless

[johntt]

johntt if you are saying about Bluecross and the quote of our ladys
sure it wasn't long ago pope Francis said she wasn't a postwomen
and only the first 7 appartions is that they would take
so do we believe in just the 7 the rest are not right
so if we go with him on that the rest are not quotes
so how confusing is it with the one's who leads us at times
GOD BLESS YOU All
love Irish M
Ps hope I have put this the right way what I am trying to say as johntt you put me straight on the
Pope before so don't know if have put this the right road God Bless

'Irish m' I can understand how people are confused at the present time but let me just respond to what you say here.

Although Pope Francis, on a personal level, seems to struggle a bit with the Medjugorje events, he has, nevertheless, sent his personal envoy to live permanently in Medjugorje. The commission set up to investigate the events there were positive about the early apparitions but some members of the commission were more cautious about subsequent apparitions. Neither the Vatican, nor Pope Francis, has condemned in any way the events in Medjugorje.

[irish m]

johntt But if pope knew of the sex abuse for years would that be right
I don't think so
Do you see why it is confusing
That is why I wrote this Question so you just take bits of what the Pope says as true
I don't know
All I can do is ask God to Guide me in my life and the Blessed Mother
God Bless you all love Irish M

[bluecross]

If language is not correct, then what is said is not what is meant; if what is said is not what is meant, then what must be done remains undone; if this remains undone, morals and art will deteriorate; if justice goes astray, the people will stand about in helpless confusion. Hence there must be no arbitrariness in what is said. This matters above everything.
– Confucius

“Did God really say you were not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?”
– the talking Serpent, Genesis 3 : 1 (The Fall)

“I came into this world to bear witness for this: to bear witness to the truth; and all who are on the side of truth listen to my voice.” “Truth?” said Pilate “What is that?”
- Jesus before Pilate, John 18 : 37-38

[bluecross]

Today the Church celebrates the Memorial of the Beheading of John the Baptist.

More recently the demand is for the removal of the Visible Head of the Church.

[Maryh]

Whats so perplexing to me is how this demand for the head of the church is coming from other 'shepherds'!

God forgive me; i have to ask not only 'what is truth'?...'who is my neighbour'? but also 'who is my shepherd'?
I have to ask myself those.

[Prodigals]

Whats so perplexing to me is how this demand for the head of the church is coming from other 'shepherds'!

"We instruct you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who walks in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us."

[bluecross]

Why should the divisive ways of Satan be so perplexing? He seizes every opportunity to do so. He will use priests, forums, families, friends and loved ones at every opportunity.

Eventually we become oblivious to our own faults because we are so intent on focusing on the faults of others. Satan takes our eyes off the ball, so to speak.

We are all called to be shepherds, that is to lead others to Christ by our example and love for each other, even those we perceive as enemies or people who challenge our way of life and beliefs.

Nothing has changed much throughout the centuries. The Gospel message is still unacceptable to some people. Satan hasn’t stopped working. Every soul born is like fresh meat. The Church will always have divisions. Pride is mostly the root cause, a rebellion against authority and God. It was pride that made angels fall from heaven.

Corruption is nothing new in the Church. After all we belong to a church for sinners. Jesus sits down with sinners. He does so at every Mass. The Pharisees and their scribes complained to his disciples and asked them why they eat and drink with tax-collectors and sinners. Jesus replied: “It’s not those who are well who need the doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the virtuous, but sinners to repentance.”

That’s the call at Medjugorje – sinners to repentance – the Church to repentance.

But for some, even repenting of sins is not acceptable. Nor can they see it as a sign that the Church for sinners is called daily to repent of its sins, frequent confession as Our Lady refers to.

A sure sign of pride in one’s heart is the time we feel we have nothing or no reason to confess to our priests, because of their personal faults or weaknesses.

The word resignation has a wider meaning than simply resigning or leaving a position of responsibility. It can also mean acceptance. Synonyms are: patience, forbearance, tolerance, stoicism, endurance, fortitude, sufferance, lack of protest, lack of complaint, passivity… all qualities that Jesus demonstrated on earth.

[bluecross]

other 'shepherds'

Martin Luther was an ordained ‘shepherd’ – an Augustinian.

[Maryh]

Didn't Martin Luther decide to start his own religion and defected completely away from the Catholic Church
due to his being outraged by the sale of plenary indulgences?

I wouldn't consider him as my shepherd because from what I've heard, obedience is seen as a huge deal. Obedience to the church that Jesus founded.
That's why there is a hierarchy in the first place isn't it? Obedience to their superiors is seen as obedience to Christ himself.

"Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. Mathew 10:20

Then i think of St. Padro Pio who remained absolutely obedient to his superiors even though he was being silenced and treated very unfairly.

The word resignation has a wider meaning than simply resigning or leaving a position of responsibility. It can also mean acceptance. Synonyms are: patience, forbearance, tolerance, stoicism, endurance, fortitude, sufferance, lack of protest, lack of complaint, passivity… all qualities that Jesus demonstrated on earth.

Jesus gave evil no resistance, He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.


What's happening now in the Church looks also like the works of the flesh too, not just the devil.
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

We are all called to be shepherds, that is to lead others to Christ by our example and love for each other, even those we perceive as enemies or people who challenge our way of life and beliefs.

We are, but i don't know how to be a shepherd to others unless i go through the door who is Jesus. Unless i do; i'm a lost sheep still looking for the voice of the shepherd. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and is our high priest forever.

Those bible quotes i posted earlier suggest that there will be those who come amongst the flock only to kill, steal and destroy. Jesus already warned us and also spoke out against false shepherds in Ezekiel 34. I rely on God's promises to rescue his sheep from their mouths. Its not my favourite pass time to dwell on corruption or the vices of others but this has been a serious problem, where a lack of action has had devastating consequences to the most vulnerable.

I know I'm supposed to be practising speaking less, but i don't really understand what is meant here: 'Whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven'?

Matthew 16:17-19 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

We instruct you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who walks in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us."

I wrote you in the letter not to associate-with sexually-immoral ones— not at-all meaning with the sexually-immoral ones of this world, or with the greedy and swindlers, or with idolaters, because then you would have to go out of the world! But now, I wrote to you not to associate-with them if anyone being named a brother should be a sexually-immoral one, or a greedy one, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler— not even to eat with such a one. For what do I have to do with judging the ones outside? Are you not judging the ones inside? But God judges the ones outside. Remove the evil one from-among you yourselves.
1 Corinthians 5

If the unrepentant are not shunned; they become emboldened and empowered as they try to hide behind & collude with the ones who are really trying to obey & serve the will of God.
The bottom line is folk needed to be booted out and they were not. They went under the radar and even got promoted.

[bluecross]

If the unrepentant are not shunned; they become emboldened and empowered as they try to hide behind & collude with the ones who are really trying to obey & serve the will of God.
The bottom line is folk needed to be booted out and they were not. They went under the radar and even got promoted.

Let’s suppose you had the misfortune to find yourself in hospital for a serious operation and the surgeon was an ‘unrepentant Catholic’ that you had heard about. And say your life was hanging in the balance and he was the best surgeon in his field. Would you shun him?

Or say you were seriously hurt in a road accident and it was touch and go whether you survive or not. But God sent a priest to administer the last sacrament. However the priest was a man with a suspect reputation and a lot of baggage, the kind of priest you say needs to be ‘booted out’. Would your pride allow you to seek absolution because of his damaged ministry, or would you just simply shun him, failing to see in the process the goodness of God that is in all sinners?

When we condemn priests or anyone in this way, we condemn ourselves (I include myself in this). Sure, condemn the sin, but never the sinner. Boot out the sin, but should we not try and resist from putting the boot in on our priests?

Finally, are we not mercifully blessed when our own sins are not exposed to the world by our priests? Yet when a priest’s sins are made public there is a queue outside the church ready to condemn him.

Martin Luther wasn’t the only Catholic outraged by the sale of plenary indulgences. The people also protested. This is the same spirit I see reentering the Church now. Catholics are becoming protesters fuelled by media and scandal. Many are moving to other Churches or leaving the Church. There is even a story today about a group of Catholics who have decided not to attend Mass this Sunday in protest against the hierarchy of the Church. Their indignation and protesting spirit has set them against a personal healing encounter with the Lord at Mass. Talk about self-harming!

[Maryh]

Not meaning to be rude Bluecross; i'll have to decline from answering those questions you've proposed.
If you'd like to inform us of what you'd do or what you think the correct answer is though i'm all ears.
I just cannot grapple with those hypothetical scenarios you've described as its been all too real for me and my answer would not be objective.
I'll just leave it here. I've probably already spoken too much.

Pope Francis:

We ask that our families be sustained in their efforts to advance Christ’s Kingdom and to care for the least of our brothers and sisters. Amid the storms and winds that buffet our times, may they be a bulwark of faith and goodness, resisting, in the best traditions of this nation, all that would diminish our dignity as men and women created in God’s image and called to the sublime destiny of eternal life.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This open wound challenges us to be firm and decisive in the pursuit of truth and justice. I beg the Lord’s forgiveness for these sins and for the scandal and betrayal felt by so many others in God’s family.

[Prodigals]

You asked us to make a choice. And so we shall.
No offense, but we'll choose St. Paul's advice over your advice, and we will shun the predators roaming in our midst, while we pray that they repent of their sin.

When we condemn priests or anyone in this way, we condemn ourselves . . .

By your devious reasoning, following St. Paul's instruction leads us to condemn ourselves.