Chat with other believers about Medjugorje.

Moderators: TimHaley, MedjAdmin, Management

#231682
I didn’t claim the story was new.

I mentioned the book was published in Portuguese in 2013.

The Italian translation was published recently.

Aletetia published its review today:

https://aleteia.org/2018/10/18/pope-fra ... nversions/

But you may want to see the link between the Pope’s reference to obedience and criteria for discernment of apparitions and the recent comment on obedience which he made to Medjugorje’s parish priest.

You may also want to be encouraged by the Pope’s words about the graces at Medjugorje and the conversions there.

You may also want to take into account his comment about lack of discernment.

You may also want to take into account his explanation that the spirit of worldly curiosity, which seeks knowledge for its own sake and looks for things that are more and more strange and unusual, leads people away from true wisdom and from God’s beauty.
#231685
I found the Aleteia article to which BC links most interesting. I love Pope Francis and believe he will be viewed as one the really great Popes but his history regarding Medjugorje show, for me, his more fallible side.

The truth is, his discernment of Medjugorje was initially mistaken. I think he will have been affected by the many false apparitions, locutions etc emerging in South America in particular. Coupled with this is what seems a lack of knowledge of what had been happening in Medjugorje made worse possibly by a lot of negative information he may have been given by those around him. I also think of his big mistakes regarding the clergy abuse matters in Chile which illustrate his almost childlike readiness to accept, at face value, what he is told.

But of course Pope Francis' openness eventually allows the truth to emerge and he is then ready to correct his previously mistaken positions.

One matter about which I believe he is making another mistake is that of climate change. As in the cases I have just mentioned, he is believing in what he is being told by some of the scientific community. What I think he is unaware of is the very significant section of the independent scientific community which reject the narrative presented by the secular media on this topic. But for the Pope to make a mistake on what is a fundamentally secular matter is something, I believe, we need not be too concerned about.
#231690
johntt wrote:
I found the Aleteia article to which BC links most interesting. I love Pope Francis and believe he will be viewed as one the really great Popes but his history regarding Medjugorje show, for me, his more fallible side.

The truth is, his discernment of Medjugorje was initially mistaken. I think he will have been affected by the many false apparitions, locutions etc emerging in South America in particular. Coupled with this is what seems a lack of knowledge of what had been happening in Medjugorje made worse possibly by a lot of negative information he may have been given by those around him.
Pope Francis expressed a personal opinion about the regularity of the ongoing claims of apparitions when a question was put to him during a press conference. He also went into some detail about the Commission report and how he had prevented it from being undermined by the CDF.

More recently, he had authorised “official” pilgrimages, putting Medjugorje on par with the likes of Lourdes and Fatima when it comes to organising pilgrimages at Diocesan level.

He has also put his own man into Medjugore, reporting directly back to the Pope, to provide pastoral care at a level the local bishop was never interested in providing for pilgrims.

He has on his desk a full report on the findings by the internal commission set up by Pope Benedict XVI to investigate the Medjugorje phenomenon – at all levels.

Pope Francis takes his time in discerning matters and as we are remined often enough, the Church does not hurry. Amost 38 years have passed since the start of the phenomenon. I am of the opinion that much has been achieved on the Medjugorje front under Pope Francis.

Let’s not forget he invited representatives from the Medjugorje parish to join the Marian Day of Prayer in Rome in 2013.

Let’s not forget his appointment of Henry Hoser to Medjugorje, first as a his special envoy in February 2017, and then followed up in May 2018 as his permanent visitor.

More recently, we were presented with the news about the new status regarding official pilgrimages.

No doubt, there will be more to come. This ‘pastoral’ progress may not mean Pope Francis has had a change of heart about his personal doubts on the claims of ongoing apparitions. He might still hold that view and the further study the Church is giving to this matter may or may not support his personal view.

That Pope Francis has raised a ‘red flag’ in this way should not be ignored. He has full knowledge of the Commission’s report, which we don’t. There may be something in there that has raised doubts, not just for the Pope but also for some of the Commission members.

The Pope may be quite content for the visionaries to receive their apparitions in a private capacity and even to circulate the messages. If there is anything untoward about some claims made by some of the visionaries, then time will tell. As I have said before, the proof will be in Mirjana delivering the so-called ‘secrets’ which she claims she was chosen to do in the very early stage of the phenomenon.
#231692
The first half of BC's post above lists all the positives that Pope Francis has brought to the Medjugorje events and of course I agree with all of them.

But then BC tells us "This ‘pastoral’ progress may not mean Pope Francis has had a change of heart about his personal doubts on the claims of ongoing apparitions. " Well I suppose anything is possible but I reject that view. Pope Francis has most clearly changed his views on Medjugorje and we thank the Lord for that.

And now BC tells us "That Pope Francis has raised a ‘red flag’ in this way should not be ignored."! And what is the red flag that Francis is supposed to have raised??

Anyone who has any remaining doubts about Pope Francis' position on Medjugorje need only listen to Archbishop Hoser's overwhelming support, the Archbishop being the Pope's representative in Medjugorje.

Yes, it will only be the unfolding of the secrets that finally 'prove' the authenticity of Mirjana and the other visionaries but for many who doubt now, I suspect that even then they will struggle to believe.
#231693
Both Pope Francis and Henryk Hoser acknowledge the graces at Medjugorje.

What they have yet to acknowledge is validity of the claims of ongoing apparitions.

There are many people around the world who recognise the depth of grace given at Medjugorje, but do not accept the apparitions.

That is, so far, the Church’s position as well.

In the recent announcement from the Vatican about official pilgrimages it was made clear that they do not authenticate known events. The red flag is still hoisted. The Vatican News website reported:
The "ad interim" director of the Holy See Press Office, Alessandro Gisotti, responding to journalists' questions about the announcement, specified that the papal authorization must be accompanied by "care to prevent these pilgrimages from being interpreted as an authentication of known events, which still require examination by the Church. Therefore,  care must be taken to avoid creating confusion or ambiguity from the doctrinal point of view regarding such pilgrimages. This also concerns pastors of every order and level who intend to go to Medjugorje and celebrate or concelebrate there even in a solemn way".

"Considering the considerable flow of people who go to Medjugorje and the abundant fruits of grace that have sprung from it – continued Gisotti – this authorization is part of the particular pastoral attention that the Holy Father intended to give to that reality, aimed at encouraging and promoting the fruits of good".
#231694
This report was produced by Andrea Tornielli for Vatican Insider two years ago on May 17, 2017. It’s worth taking into account we we see some of the recent steps made by the Vatican on the Medjugorje front .

Since presenting this report Andrea Tornielli was appointed in December 2018 as Editorial Director for the Vatican Dicastery for Communication (Vatican News' parent organization).

The report also has a secition titled: The doubts about the development of the phenomenon. This in my language is the “red flag” I mentioned in two previous posts.

Vatican City, May 17, 2017:

Thirteen votes in favor of recognizing the supernatural nature of the first seven appearances in Medjugorje, one vote against and one “suspensive” ballot, which will give a final answer later. A majority of suspensive votes and many doubts instead, concerning the apparition phenomenon from the end of 1981 to today.

These are the results of the work done by the commission on Medjugorje established in 2010 by Benedict XVI and chaired by Cardinal Camillo Ruini.

Pope Francis mentioned this report in the press conference on the return flight from Fatima when he revealed the distinction between the first apparitions and the later ones, saying, “A commission of good theologians, bishops, cardinals. Good, good, good. The Ruini report is very, very good. It is well known that the signal that emerged from the Pontiff’s words is positive about the spiritual fruits and the conversions (people who go there and convert, people who meet God, who change life),” but was negative with regard to the current apparitions: “I prefer Our Lady as Mother, and not the head of the telegraph office, who sends a message every day.”

A commission wanted by Ratzinger

From 17 March 2010 to 17 January 2014, a commission chaired by Ruini was set up by the will of Benedict XVI. In addition to the former chairman of the CEI, Cardinals Jozef Tomko, Vinko Puljic, Josip Bozanic, Julián Herranz and Angelo Amato took part. The psychologist Tony Anatrella, the theologians Pierangelo Sequeri, Franjo Topic, Mihály Szentmártoni and Nela Gašpar, the Mariologist Salvatore Perrella, the anthropologist Achim Schütz, the canonist David Jaeger, the speaker of the causes of the saints Zdzislaw Józef Kijas, the psychologist Mijo Nikic and the official of the Doctrine of the Faith Krzysztof Nykiel. Their task was to “collect and examine all the material” about Medjugorje and to present “a detailed report” followed by a vote on the “supernatural nature or not” of the apparitions as well as the most appropriate “pastoral solutions.” The committee met 17 times and screened all documents filed in the Vatican, the parish of Medjugorje and the archives of the secret services of the former Yugoslavia. The commission heard all the seers and witnesses involved, and in April 2012, they carried out an inspection in the village of Herzegovina.

Positive Findings on First Appearances

The commission noted a very clear difference between the beginning of the phenomenon and its following development, and therefore decided to issue two distinct votes on the two different phases: the first seven presumed appearances between June 24 and July 3, 1981, and all that happened later. Members and experts came out with 13 votes in favor of recognizing the supernatural nature of the first visions. A member voted against and an expert expressed a suspensive vote. The committee argues that the six young seers were psychically normal and were caught by surprise by the apparition, and that nothing of what they had seen was influenced by either the Franciscans of the parish or any other subjects. They showed resistance in telling what happened despite police arrest and death threats. The commission also rejected the hypothesis of a demonic origin of the apparitions.

The doubts about the development of the phenomenon

With regard to the second phase of the apparitions, the commission took note of the heavy interference caused by the conflict between the bishop and the Franciscans of the parish, as well as the fact that the apparitions, pre-announced and programmed individually for each seer continued with repetitive messages. These visions continued despite the fact that the youngsters had said they would end, however this actually has never happened. There is then the issue of the “secrets” of the somewhat apocalyptic flavor that the seers claim to have received from the apparition. On this second stage, the committee voted in two steps. Firstly, taking into account the spiritual fruits of Medjugorje but leaving aside the behaviors of the seers. On this point, 3 members and 3 experts say there are positive outcomes, 4 members and 3 experts say they are mixed, with a majority of positive effects, and the remaining 3 experts claim there are mixed positive and negative effects. If, in addition to the spiritual fruits, the behaviors of the seers is also taken into account, eight members and four experts believe that an opinion cannot be expressed, while two other members have voted against the supernatural nature of the phenomenon.

The Pastoral Solution

Having noted that the Medjugorje seers have never been adequately followed on the spiritual side, along with the fact that for a long time they have no longer been a group, the commission has endorsed the end of the ban on pilgrimages organized in Medjugorje. In addition, 13 members and experts out of the 14 present voted in favor of the constitution of “an authority dependent on the Holy See” in Medjugorje as well as the transformation of the parish into a pontifical sanctuary. A decision based on pastoral reasons - the care of millions of pilgrims, avoiding the formation of “parallel churches,” clarity on economic issues - which would not imply the recognition of the supernatural nature of the apparitions.

The doubts of the Doctrine of the Faith

Francis mentioned them on the airplane. The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith led by Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Mueller expressed doubts about the phenomenon and about the Ruini report, considered an authoritative contribution to be compared with other opinions and reports. In 2016 a “Feria IV”, the monthly meeting of Dicastry members, was summoned to discuss the Medjugorje case and the Ruini report. Each of the cardinals and bishops who are members of the Feria IV received the text of the commission but also other material in the hands of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. During the meeting, members were asked to give their opinions. However, Pope Francis, unwilling to have the Ruini report put up for “auction,” decided that the opinions of the Feria IV members had to be sent directly to him. And that’s exactly what happened.

Francis’ decision

After examining the Ruini report and the opinions of the members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Pope decided to entrust to the Polish Archbishop Henryk Hoser a “special mission of the Holy See” to “acquire more in-depth knowledge of the pastoral situation “In Medjugorje, and “above all, the needs of the faithful who come to pilgrimage” to “suggest any pastoral initiatives for the future.” By summer 2017 the Polish Archbishop will deliver the results of his work with which the Pope will make a decision.
#231695
bluecross wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:56 pmThe report also has a secition titled: The doubts about the development of the phenomenon. This in my language is the “red flag” I mentioned in two previous posts.
:) I have to smile here at BC's colourful presentation of the Pope's 'red flag'!! First of all the section is not from Pope Francis but from the Ruini commission. Secondly, the limited 'doubts' of a few on the commission are hardly a red flag.

Nevertheless, it was worth including this limited summary of the Ruini report on the forum as Andrea Tornielli's report may well be the only details we will ever see of the work of the commission. I found the section on the CDF very enlightening. The departure of Cardinal Muller and the somewhat 'downgrading' of his old Congregation is, I feel, one of the more important moves by Pope Francis in recent times.

Mr Tornielli is certainly an excellent and reliable reporter and commentator and so I, for one, was very pleased to see him appointed to a Vatican post. So it is appropriate that I copy again part of his most recent comments on Medjugorje that I posted on another thread last month - http://www.medjugorjelive.org/forum/vie ... 77#p231627

  • It is precisely for this reason that, by continuing to study the phenomenon of Medjugorje and without there being a pronouncement on the authenticity of the apparitions, the Pope intended to acknowledge those who face the hardships of the journey to go and pray in that place. For this reason he wanted his own permanent envoy, a bishop from the Holy See, who was in charge of the pastoral care of the pilgrims. And for this reason he now decides to go beyond what was declared more than twenty years ago by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which allowed pilgrimages to Medjugorje but only "in a private way". Now, instead, dioceses and parishes will be able to organize and guide those pilgrimages which are an expression of the Marian piety of the people of God.
#231700
At the conclusion of its 202nd General Chapter this week, Pope Francis exhorted Conventual Franciscans to “Preach peace,” in the spirit of the traditional Franciscan greeting: “Pax et bonum”.

The Pope said peace can be interpreted as “reconciliation… with ourselves, with God, with others, and with creatures.”

“Reconciliation consists in concentric circles which begin in the heart and extend out to embrace the whole universe. But in reality, it begins in the heart of God, the heart of Christ,” he said.

This type of peace, he pointed out, is more than an absence of problems, because it emanates “from the presence of God within us.”

Source: Vatican News

On the third day of the Medjugorje apparitions, Our Lady gave this message to Marija: "Peace, Peace, Peace! Be reconciled! Only Peace. Make your peace with God and among yourselves…”
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