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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:57 pm 
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“Dear children,
Who could speak to you about the love and the pain of my Son better than I? I lived with Him; I suffered with Him. Living the earthly life I felt pain because I was a mother. My Son loved the thoughts and the works of the Heavenly Father, the true God. And, as He said to me, He came to redeem you. I hid my pain through love, but you, my children, you have numerous questions. You do not comprehend pain. You do not comprehend that through the love of God you need to accept pain and endure it. Every human being will experience it to a lesser or greater measure. But with peace in the soul and in a state of grace, hope exists; this is my Son, God, born of God. His words are the seed of eternal life. Sown in good souls it brings numerous fruits. My Son bore the pain because He took your sins upon Himself. Therefore, you, my children, apostles of my love, you who suffer, know that your pain will become light and glory. My children, while you are enduring pain, while you are suffering, Heaven enters in you and you give a piece of Heaven and much hope to all those around you. Thank you.“


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Quote:
You do not comprehend pain.

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Just exactly who is this message addressed to?

Quote:
You do not comprehend that through the love of God you need to accept pain and endure it.

No point in taking pain relief anymore, then?

Mirjana’s messages are becoming more bizarre by the month, in my opinion. :(

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:58 pm 
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It reminds me of my late grandmother.
She died 43 years ago, I was only seven
perhaps. However, I can still remember
what she answered when I asked for a
cookie. I used to say: Can I have a
cookie? I am hungry. She always used to
reply:
Hungry? You don't know what hunger is.
We suffered hunger in the war. That was
hunger.

So shall we now all invest in a torture
chamber? And learn the latest and the
greatest about mortification of the flesh?
While I think I find no references to
Mary's physical suffering in scripture
and other histories, it must be the
suffering from the soul that is referenced
to.

Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and rejected by
mankind, a man of suffering, and
familiar with pain. Like one from
whom people hide their faces he
was despised, and we held him in
low esteem.

So when we are about to suffer
then we waive the suffering away
and we ask God for relief.........
Maybe too quick and easy.

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The wrath of God is more delightful than the joy of men. Or do you think that after satiation of the wrath of God, the world is lost? On the contrary, when God is done with us, we will cry with joy. Do we need devastation to open our eyes though.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Veronica comprehended pain and suffering. She stepped out of the line to comfort and wipe the face of Jesus. For this she was rewarded.

As for pain of the soul... why bother going to confession if we are not prepared to allow Jesus to take away the pain?

I find Mirjana’s messages becoming more and more clichéd.

Quote:
“...these alleged apparitions do not have much value.”
Pope Francis, February 13, 217

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:41 pm 
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These messages are for those who do not yet know the love of God. They may seem simplistic to people with deep faith. When I read this message, it seemed like the Blessed Mother was telling us about redemptive suffering or making reparation for sin in the world through our gift of suffering. It may be addressed to the people that ask in difficulties, "Why does a loving God allow ......." She is telling us why...so that our sacrifices may bring about a greater good and conversions for the glory of God.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Thanks maryannlucy. You answer makes sense up to a point.

But I ask myself: If the messages are for those who do not know the love of God, why does she use the phrase “apostles of my love”?

Apostle – “one who is sent out”. (as the 12 apostles who were sent out to proclaim the kingdom and knew the sacrificial love of Jesus).

So is she speaking to those who DO know the love of God – or DON’T?

I don’t think the Mirjana’s messages are simplistic, especially if they are directed at non-believers.

As I already mentioned, they seem clichéd to me, soundbites.

There are 17 sentences in the message.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:13 pm 
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These messages are more complex and have a further reach than we think. Just like with Holy Scripture, some of the verses seem simplistic but a theologian can break it down into something far more complex.
They are meant for all learning levels and comprehension.

How does one truly understand this part of the message which I feel is beautifully said: "Therefore, you children, my apostles of my love, you who suffer, know that your pain will become light and glory." There is a lot of depth to this message....

A mom who has a little girl named Lelia Moran who has brain cancer definitely found Marjana's message from Our Lady comforting... I was up praying for this precious little girl last night when I ran into two full rainbows, each in different locations and finally a beautiful golden sunset appeared. This was confirmation to me that God was speaking to this little girl to give her hope. It certainly gave me hope. The golden sunset also tied into Mirjana's message concerning the "light and glory" To me, it was as if Mary was speaking directly to this little girl and her family who are enduring so much suffering right now.....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Quote:
It certainly gave me hope

Hope for what?

Nice photo. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:48 pm 
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That is a glorious photo, Medjugorje prayers! Our Lady's messages to those who have yet to experience the love of God are actually for everybody because we are not yet perfect in our faith, charity and hope. I think that is why She generously calls us Apostles because we are in training before the Pentecost. In my own understanding of events, the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart will be a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit to solidify our training as Apostles of love.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Quote:
She generously calls us Apostles because we are in training before the Pentecost.

Now I am confused. Please explain this statement.

And a question for you to consider: Which is the greatest Triumph? The Triumph of the Cross or the Triumph of Mary’s Immaculate Heart? Is there a difference?

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Last edited by bluecross on Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Hope that all the pain and suffering one endures is not in vain?
That there is a reason, or that it is valuable in some mysteriously divine redemptive way?

Quote:
i hid my pain through love, but you, my children, you have numerous questions. You do not comprehend pain. You do not comprehend that through the love of God you need to accept pain and endure it.


Recently, even reading through the posts about how God could allow or ordain certain catastrophic scenario's where people have to suffer so much; i wanted to participate in the thread but was totally flummoxed, because no; i still do not comprehend pain.
Not going to lie, i find it abhorrent that God would 'let' certain heinous things occur in this world; or design things a certain way.

One of the biggest deterrents for anyone to have faith is to look around at the state of the world, They then decide there is no God, because of all the suffering there is. Young children suffering, the wicked getting away with their crimes..so much. It's hard to think God is in control at times.
People who may have prayed to God at one point, but felt none of their prayers were answered are left adrift believing there is no God, at least not one who cares about them or would intervene on their behalf on any level.
People not willing to tolerant pain try to run from it in all kinds of unhealthy ways as well.

I love this message and think its highly valuable. It links in with Jesus telling us that in this world we can expect trouble, but to take heart...
Also with his transfiguration; where upon facing his crucifixion, brought his disciplines up the mountain where he became the light of the world in front of them in a kind of beatific vision.

Maybe when we suffer; we can process whatever darkness it is; & when suffered with Jesus; It will be a thing of beauty. In the end.

The Lord’s people
may suffer a lot,
but he will always
bring them safely through.

Psalm 34:19


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:26 pm 
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This is in response to Bluecross I said, "She generously calls us Apostles because we are in training before the Pentecost" My opinion is that Our Lady has called us Apostles frequently in Her messages because She is expecting us to closely adhere the teachings of the Church and to lead others to also so that more and more people could be reconciled with God. She has frequently said that we live in a time of grace. This is a unique time and one that began with Fatima and will finish with Medjugorje, the Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart. The Triumph of the Immaculate Heart will be victory over satan. It is something that we await, but we only have vague notions of what it may entail...like a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Okay, but are you implying or even saying that there has been no outpouring of the Holy Spirit since he came down on the disciples in the Upper Room?
Quote:
I think that is why She generously calls us Apostles because we are in training before the Pentecost.


Quote:
The Triumph of the Immaculate Heart will be victory over satan

My understanding is that victory over satan was achieved by the Triumph of the Cross when Jesus, through his death on the Cross and Resurrection, overcame death.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Bluecross, what you said above is the truth, however, we know from Our Lady's messages that She has often said that 1. satan is strong and 2. we live in a special time: the time of grace before the Triumph of Her heart. She said that Priests are the strong bridge that is needed to achieve this triumph. They are the ones that generate the sacramental graces that are needed for these times.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:20 pm 
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bluecross wrote:
Hope for what?


Common BC, you know the answer to that :wink:

Wishing you the best weekend!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Common BC, you know the answer to that :wink:

I wouldn’t ask if I did. Hope for what?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:57 am 
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Sometimes it is useful to tap into
the way our ancestor's perception
of what ulterior pain is. They were
living in another time and had their
own idea of what pain might be.

Look at 40 seconds of drama in
the opera "the magic flute". The
main personage mentions what
pain is for her. The drama shows
what is caused. She comes on the
scene all delighted. But then...

https://youtu.be/PtG5A1WFYWI?t=40

_________________
The wrath of God is more delightful than the joy of men. Or do you think that after satiation of the wrath of God, the world is lost? On the contrary, when God is done with us, we will cry with joy. Do we need devastation to open our eyes though.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:21 am 
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BC, I ask this question seriously and with no modicum of mischief.
Basically, how do you justify trusting the other visionaries (which I'm assuming you do) when you have strong doubts about one of them?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:51 am 
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SBI, you are questioning your own assumptions. Therefore it is for you to answer your own question.

The mention of ‘mischief’ is a giveaway. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Dear BC,

You who have suffered much thru your cardiac compromise know the pains of suffering. You have been an example of faith to those in hospitals in in your BLOG. The BVM is encouraging all to suffer with joy to be an example o all. This message has many knew pearls for thought. She even eludes to her own suffering and pain. We all have suffering in our lives. Often times we hear others say " I could not handle that" in reference to other's who suffer ill either financial, physical or spiritual. I am sure that you have heard the phrase " find joy in your suffering". I believe that is what she is asking us to do in order to be the example, light and apostle to the world.

Each one of us take a little something from the 2nd and 24th Message of the BVM. Some take nothing out of them. I, myself, don't appreciate her message of "PRAY PRAY PRAY". I think to myself 'HOW MUCH MORE!!!" but I rock on and say more rosaries or pray with my life of care for my patients who rely on me, therefore I will continue to look forward to here "TRITE" messages.

Love In Christ,
MRSTOL

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:08 pm 
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It’s probably because of my periods in hospital that I find Mirjana’s words “You do not comprehend pain... You don’t know how to suffer” incomprehensible. I have witnessed the pain of others in hospital, believers and non-believers, who are stoic in suffering and a beautiful example to others. Some are able to “hide their pain through love”, not wanting to be a burden to their family and friends.

I understand and accept that our Heavenly Mother understands the pain of her children and is at the foot of every cross, but I can’t accept that the words delivered by Mirjana on Saturday were dictated by Our Lady.

Hopefully, some official guidance on the messages will be given to the faithful by Pope Francis in due course, and not just his personal opinion.

My latest procedure – a month ago – was an endovascular aneurysm repair.

Had CT and x-ray follow-up scans last week and will find out in a couple of weeks if the surgery was successful. :)

Last year, I was told that this procedure was not possible as my left ventricle was pumping at just 19% efficiency (norm is between 60-75%) and I wouldn’t wake up from anaesthetic. Then last January help from above came my way and a scan revealed that the efficiency rate had risen to 59%. My cardiologist rated the improvement ‘remarkable’ and was willing to recommend me for repair to my aeortic aneurysm. I came through the anaesthetic without any problem, and now have two more scars to add to my growing collection! :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Maryh wrote:
. . was totally flummoxed, because no; i still do not comprehend pain.


Comprehending pain is not the question; it is the failure to understand its meaning and purpose that is important. The great tragedy of this world is not that people suffer, but how much they miss because of their lack of understanding of the ultimate purpose of pain. If that thief next to Christ did not finally understand the purpose of his pain, he would never have saved his soul that afternoon.

The answer is the Crucifixion. In order to comprehend the purpose of the pain of the Crucifixion (and thereby our own) we must understand that Christ without His Cross cannot save. The pain of the Cross is not something that has happened to one individual a long time ago. The pain of the Crucifixion is something that is continuing to happen to all mankind - believer and unbeliever alike.

As Christians, it is absolutely essential that we grasp this.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Maryh wrote:
Not going to lie, i find it abhorrent that God would 'let' certain heinous things occur in this world; or design things a certain way.

A statement like this indicates a lack of understanding of who we are, where we are, and why we were put here.

Because of our disobedience of God, we were tossed out of an eternally joyful Paradise and abandoned here. Upon our exit, the world became a finite and hostile place to man. Despite its ability to produce beautiful moments such as those photographed by medjugorjeprayers, this fallen world God has banished us to now has the ability to inflict great pain and suffering, as well as to deliver the ultimate pain of mortal death. All of human history testifies to this. If this lesser place that we now inhabit was meant to also be a paradise, He who created it would have never taken leave of it on Good Friday.

Abhorrent that God would let this happen to us? Did we not bring this upon ourselves? Is God not permitted to apply whatever justice He wishes to the people of His own creation?

Just as we have been told by the Medjugorje visionaries about the chastisements that are coming, prayer can lessen the severity of our earthly punishments. But we must never think that our banishment is over. Forget not the doctrine of Original Sin. Our present situation continues to be the harvest of our past. But God in His infinite mercy has sent us The Christ, who has returned hope to our hopeless situation and laid out the path for our return to Paradise.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:34 pm 
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I have read this a few times. Initially I was disturbed by it, and I asked my wife to read it to get a second perspective. She saw it completely differently, so I read it again and again. It changed my perspective.

BC, perhaps the reason this is so difficult for you to read is because it hits too close to home. I am sure you have been through quite a bit of suffering with your health issues, and feel like all that is worthless when you read this. It is not. Perhaps you are a shining example of what the message is trying to convey, not as one who doubts, but as Mary is a shining example. And maybe you are much closer to God than you know.

I also wonder if there is a connection between this message and the hurricane and flooding that has hit Texas. It seems many of the messages through Mirjiana have a connection to real world events going on.

One key part of this message that struck me is that every person on this earth will suffer to a lesser or greater extent. This is not new. We all have crosses to bear, and some are greater than others. But I do not see in this message Mary saying we cannot enjoy life and have times of joy, either.

The only other observation I want to make is that I sense an underlying frustration from Mother Mary with this message, as if to say to us that life’s journey to God isn’t all wine and roses (especially in the world we live in today). We have to carry our crosses. That may be reading too much into this, and I may be way off. I am going to see if I can find out what Mirjiana said about Mother Mary’s appearance this time.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:09 pm 
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"... but you, my children, you have numerous questions. You do not comprehend pain. You do not comprehend that through the love of God you need to accept pain and endure it. Every human being will experience it to a lesser or greater measure."

Aren't these words somewhat similar to Jesus's words in today's Gospel
Then Jesus said to his disciples,
"Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself,
take up his cross, and follow me.
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world
and forfeit his life?
Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory,
and then he will repay all according to his conduct."


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