Chat with other believers about Medjugorje.

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By irish m
#231636
Is the pope right to change what our lord give to the apostles The Lord's prayer yes or No
well my thoughts are No but that's me
don't really know any more
God Bless you all
love Irish M
like to hear what the Forum has to say
User avatar
By Prodigals
#231653
irish m wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:48 pm Is the pope right to change what our lord give to the apostles
Its all down to language, irish.

The root of the problem is that Jesus didn't write down the prayer that day.

You see, we don't know the exact words that Jesus spoke for the Lord's Prayer. This prayer was finally written down by two of the Gospel writers, Luke and Matthew. Trouble is, Luke and Matthew were writing over a half century after the prayer was spoken and delivered by Jesus. Luke's Gospel, (Ch. 11:2-4) was probably written about 80AD, and Matthew (Ch. 6:9-13) approximately in 85AD. And both versions are slightly different. Which one records the exact words of Jesus? We don't know because both versions reflect modifications by the authors for the audience they were writing for.

Further, the originals of both of these Gospels were written in different languages. Luke in Greek, and Matthew in Aramaic. We know Matthew wrote in Aramaic from Papias, an early Greek Father of the Church and bishop of Hieropolis, who wrote, “Matthew compiled the sayings [of the Lord] in the Aramaic language, and everyone translated them as well as he could” (Explanation of the Sayings of the Lord)

St. Irenaeus (a Greek bishop) wrote "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect . . ." (Adversus haereses 3:1:1). The Jewish people's spoken dialect was Aramaic. But we don't have Matthew's (or any) original Gospel's in Aramaic. The earliest manuscripts we have of any of the books of the New Testament are in Greek, which were translations from Hebrew texts. What we have are just copies. The oldest copy we have is a fragment of the Gospel of Mark in Greek which has been dated to the late second to early third century A.D.

And these Greek translations were then translated into Latin, which became the norm for many centuries. During the Middle Ages the "Our Father" was always said in Latin, even by the uneducated.

Then, to complicate it further, partial Bible translations into the various languages of the English people started to appear in the late 7th century, including translations into Old and Middle English. The first complete English edition of the New Testament was in 1526. Its most familiar English form is undoubtedly the King James translation.

Exact meanings change when something gets translated, irish, and there have been a lot of translations over the centuries.

Don't worry too much about it. Just keep praying the version you are happy with, and everything will be just fine.

God Bless.
User avatar
By ActionReq
#231658
You see, we don't know the exact words that Jesus spoke for the Lord's Prayer. This prayer was finally written down by two of the Gospel writers, Luke and Matthew. Trouble is, Luke and Matthew were writing over a half century after the prayer was spoken and delivered by Jesus. Luke's Gospel, (Ch. 11:2-4) was probably written about 80AD, and Matthew (Ch. 6:9-13) approximately in 85AD. And both versions are slightly different. Which one records the exact words of Jesus? We don't know because both versions reflect modifications by the authors for the audience they were writing for.
Lack of faith!
Jesus said:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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By Maryh
#231659
I really do not know either Irish M. I cannot guess why Pope Francis wants to change this particular wording exactly except
perhaps to draw our attention that we have an adversary to keep on the watch out for?

I think about how Jesus was led by the holy spirit into the desert where he was tempted by the devil.
He did not fall into temptation, but the holy spirit led him there? Why did the holy spirit lead him there in the first place?
I feel like it was Jesus's purpose to resist the temptation in the desert that time.
Also with job...he was led into temptation was he not? The temptation was to 'curse God & Die'..but Job would not do this because of his great faith in God and because he was righteous. God 'allowed' adverse situations to befall Job but he knew
his faith would see him through.
There was a purpose for 'being led into temptation' & it was not outside of God's will either.
I read somewhere that sometimes God does permit certain trials for us in order to strengthen our faith &
also because he knows that we already have what it takes to succeed and triumph over them with his help.
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By ActionReq
#231661
Maryh. I am impressed!

Jesus is the Word.
Whosoever hears His words,
hears Him and hears He whom
sent the Word in this world,
and does not stumble, but
bears testimonial of Him.
The Word heals and is Life.
Unmistakably.

If Francis reads this for some
strange reason I challenge him
to pray the following to bear
witness of the Word and
perhaps repent.

Padre nuestro, que estás en los cielos,
santificado sea tu Nombre;
venga a nosotros tu reino;
hágase tu voluntad
en la tierra como en los cielos.
Danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día;
perdona nuestras ofensas,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden;
No nos sometas a la tentación,
como también nosotros no sometemos a otros a la tentación.
Sino líbranos del maligno.

La Palabra real os libera y os cura.
La palabra comprometida y alterada no tiene poder
mas de crear irresponsables.
tal vez las cosas no son como quisiéramos.
Es saludable decir:
No nos sometas a la tentación.
Para que cada uno toma su responsabilidad.
Sin generar un pretexto de poder poner
la culpa de no haber sido responsable
sobre Dios, ya que esto es lo que genera tu alteración de la Palabra.
User avatar
By irish m
#231662
I wonder if our lady ever said the lord's prayer with Mirjana she would know just a thought get sean to ask :D
thanks everyone who answered and Maryh like the answer like to hear all the answers from the Forum
God Bless you all love Irish M
Ps was there on the 2nd of May had a blessed week missing it already :D :D :D
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By maryannlucy
#231663
I also think that God does lead us to be tested so that our faith will be strengthened. I will not be saying the LORD's prayer any differently because those were Jesus' words in the oldest translated bible, the Douay-Rheims. If Jesus said the words in the gospel, I will not change His words. Also as I was looking at some of the messages of Our Lady today where she references the Holy Spirit, one message stands out with respect to this question.
Medjugorje Message, April 11, 1985
“Dear children! Today I wish to say to everyone in the parish to pray in a special way to the Holy Spirit for enlightenment. From today God wishes to test the parish in a special way in order that He might strengthen it in faith. Thank you for having responded to my call. ”
User avatar
By beloved
#231668
Holy See confirms changes to Italian liturgical translation of Our Father, Gloria

By Hannah Brockhaus



Vatican City, Jun 7, 2019 / 02:36 pm (CNA).- The Apostolic See has confirmed the translation of the third edition of the Roman Missal prepared by the Italian bishops' conference. The translation has garnered attention for its changes to the Our Father, as well as the Gloria.

The newly-approved Messale Romano will translate the penultimate line of the Our Father (ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem) (lead us not into temptation) as “non abbandonarci alla tentazione” (do not abandon us to temptation). The existing version had translated it as “non ci indurre in tentazione” (lead us not into temptation).

In the Gloria, the line “in térra pax homínibus bónae voluntátis” (on earth peace to people of good will) will be translated “pace in terra agli uomini, amati dal Signore” (peace on earth to men, loved by the Lord). It was translated “pace in terra agli uomini di buona volontà” (peace on earth to men of good will).

The Italian bishops' conference had approved the new edition of the Messale Romano during their November 2018 general assembly. The Apostolic See's confirmation of the text was communicated during the conference's meeting last month.

News reports in English may have given the impression that Pope Francis had changed the Our Father for the whole of the Church, rather than his see having confirmed a change made by the bishops of Italy.

The new Italian text is a translation of the third edition of the Missale Romanum, the Latin typical edition which was issued in 2002. The existing Messale Romano was a translation of the second edition of the Missale Romanum, which had been promulgated in 1975.

The English translation of the third edition of the Missale Romanum was issued in 2011.

A spokesman for the English and Welsh bishops has said that the International Commission on English in the Liturgy “is not currently considering the Lord's Prayer,” and that “there are no plans at present for [the Our Father] to change in English,” but that “I am sure there will be some consultation with the English-speaking nations.”

A spokesperson for the Scottish bishops said there were “no plans” to adopt the changes, while Bishop Francis Duffy of Ardagh and Clonmacnois, liturgy chair for the Irish bishops, said that “In consultation with bishops from other English-speaking countries, the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference will give close attention to the reported change to the Lord’s Prayer. The bishops will look at the implications for both the Irish and English translations of this much loved and universal prayer.”

The change in the Italian translation was many years in the making. The revised version of the Our Father had been published in a version of the Bible approved by the Italian bishops' conference in 2002, and published in 2008.

The French bishops' conference made a similar change to its translation of the Our Father. In 2017 it adopted a translation reading “ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” (do not let us fall into temptation), whereas the former translation had read “ne nous soumets pas à la tentation” (lead us not into temptation).

In January 2018, the German bishops' conference chose against changing their translation of the Our Father to accord with the new trend. They noted “philosophical, exegetical, liturgical and, not least, ecumenical” reasons to leave the translation untouched, and added that the petition speaks of “the trust to be carried and redeemed by almighty God.”

Though the new Italian translation of the Our Father was not Pope Francis’ “change,” he has several times been publicly critical of the way the petition “ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem” is translated in some languages.

In an interview with Italian Catholic television network TV2000, Pope Francis lauded the French bishops' decision, and he expressed concern that certain translations could give the impression it is God “who pushes me toward temptation to see how I fall.”

More recently, Francis commented that “the original Greek expression contained in the Gospels is difficult to render exactly, and all modern translations are somewhat limping.”

The Greek verb found in the Gospels, eisenenkēis, means to bring in, to lead in, to carry in, or to introduce.

In his collation on the Our Father, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that “Christ teaches us to pray, not that we may not be tempted, but that we may not be led into temptation. For it is when one overcomes temptation that one deserves the reward … Our Lord, therefore, teaches us to pray that we be not led into temptation, by giving our consent to it,” because “it is human to be tempted, but to give consent is devilish.”

“But does God lead one to evil, that he should pray: 'Lead us not into temptation'? I reply that God is said to lead a person into evil by permitting him to the extent that, because of his many sins, He withdraws His grace from man, and as a result of this withdrawal man does fall into sin,” the Angelic Doctor wrote.

“God, however, directs man by the fervor of charity that he be not led into temptation. For charity even in its smallest degree is able to resist any kind of sin: 'Many waters cannot quench charity.' He also guides man by the light of his intellect in which he teaches him what he should do. For as the Philosopher says: 'Every one who sins is ignorant.' 'I will give thee understanding and I will instruct thee.' It was for this last that David prayed, saying: 'Enlighten my eyes that I never sleep in death; lest at any time my enemy say: I have prevailed against him.' We have this through the gift of understanding. Therefore, when we refuse to consent to temptation, we keep our hearts pure … And it follows from this petition that we are led up to the sight of God, and to it may God lead us all.”

Holy See confirms changes to Italian liturgical translation of Our Father, Gloria
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